TAPAS7 TUESDAY 08 APRIL 2008 10:00 HOURS

TRANSCRIPT BY DUARTE LEVY

Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview I

L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y
Form MG15(T)
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No
Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 12
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 08.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1000 hours
Time Concluded: 1018 hours Duration of Interview: 18 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos: SVF/102
Other Persons Present None

4078    “Right, okay here we are, just a few formalities at the start of the interview for the purposes of people listening to it afterwards. I’m DC 4078 Sophie FERGUSON. I work in the Major Crime Unit of Leicestershire Police and you know why you’re here today.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “You’re here at the request of the Portuguese. Can you just give us your full name please?”
Reply    “It’s Jane Michelle TANNER.”

4078    “And your date of birth Jane?”
Reply    “Sixteenth of the fourth, seventy one.”

4078    “Right, is your address sixteen ************?”
Reply    “Yes it is, yeah.”

4078    “Exeter?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And your telephone number?”
Reply    “Err its *************.”

4078    “Do you know your mobile number?”
Reply    “Yes. *********191.”

4078    “And that mobile number, is that the mobile number you had with you in Portugal last year?”
Reply    “Yes it was, yeah.”

4078    “Right, just to confirm that up for me. So you’re here at the request of the Portuguese and they’re monitoring this interview along with DC MESSIAH who’s just been in to sort out this equipment for us.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And you’ve been given a letter from us outlining the objectives of this interview but if at any time you want to stop and ask a question that’s fine.”
Reply    “Okay.”

4078    “It’s just a chat really.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Obviously I’m going to try and licit as much information out of you as we can.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And likewise I know you’re going to try and remember as much as you can.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “We’ve already discussed the fact that you wanted to refresh your memory, well you might want to refresh your memory.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “By looking at the statement that you gave previously.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “That’s fine but we’ve agreed before the interview that you’re going to do as much as you can prior to doing that.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “And then when you get to the stage that you feel you want to do that just say so.”
Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine yeah.”

4078    “Alright, or if you need the loo or a drink, or…”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “You just want to stop for five minutes that’s fine.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Your time and co-operation is obviously appreciated but I just want to ask you to be patient with me because no doubt we’ll be covering things that you’ve gone over time and time again.”
Reply    “That’s absolutely fine, no problem.”

4078    “With the Police and on your own.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “I’m going to ask you to concentrate as much as you can and try to recall what you heard, saw and did around the time of the third of May two thousand and seven. Please let me know if you need to take a break and I intend to ask you fairly open questions and then more specific questions if necessary.”
Reply    “Yeah that’s fine.”

4078    “Okay. So before we go on to talking about your holiday in Praia Da Luz can you just give me a bit of background information about how you came to be going on holiday with that group?”
Reply    “Yeah err well we’re very good friends with David and Fiona, and Matt and Rachael, err and it was really down to Fiona that decided that, first of all decided to go on holiday. We’d been on holiday with those two couples before and we’d just moved down to Exeter so we foresaw it as a good chance to keep in touch with friends, friends in Leicester really. Err so David and Fiona came up with the idea of going to Portugal on a Mark Warner holiday err I think most of us had been on a Mark Warner holiday before so err that was just sort of a nice idea to go and then we just thought Portugal, I think we’ve been to ones in Greece before so we thought Portugal would be somewhere, somewhere different for a holiday.”

4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “Err I think we ummed and ahhed for a while whether we were going to go because we had just moved and we were buying a house and everything but we just thought it was a really nice way of keeping in touch you know with friends here and for the children to see each other because I think especially as we were conscious of we’d dragged our kids down to Exeter for our sort of new life down there and they haven’t got many friends down there, they haven’t got that much child contact, you know because they’ll be still meeting people so as much for us it was like we still, well especially for Ella, my older daughter, as a way of her you know having a bit more child contact. She wasn’t at school then or anything, so.”

4078    “You’ve got Ella and Evie haven’t you?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah.”

4078    “And how old are they?”
Reply    “Ella’s four and Evie’s two.”

4078    “And would they have been the same ages last May?”
Reply    “Err no Ella’s, Ella was three and Evie was, she’s September so one, she would have been one, one in May.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Err so yeah so David, so we said we decided oh yeah we’ll go and it’ll be nice to see everybody, and we know Kate and Gerry, we’d sort of socialised with them but not as well probably as the other, as the other two couples.”

4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “Err but they’d been on holiday with David and Fiona before and so, and they’ve got children the same age as well, you know obviously Madeleine’s the same age as Ella, so a bit of a nice group.”

4078    “So you knew them all but you hadn’t all been on holiday as a group before?”
Reply    “No, we’ve been with Matt and Rachael and David and Fiona. And David and Fiona had been with Kate and Gerry but we hadn’t been, not the eight, or the nine of us including Fi’s mum, we hadn’t been on holiday before.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “We were actually supposed to go on holiday when Kate and Gerry and David and Fiona went on holiday together, we were supposed to be going, but then after we’d booked the holiday I realised I was going to be giving birth around the time of the holiday so we couldn’t go anymore.”

4078    “Right.”
Reply    “So, but we had planned before.”

4078    “How well, I know you say you’ve been away with them all before and it was the first time you’ve been away with Kate and Gerry, how well did the group of you know each other would you say? And were you very comfortable with each other?”
Reply    “Yeah very, very comfortable. I say Russell err had lived, well he was a student with both Matt and Dave and err and then with Dave and Fiona when they were living together, so, and I mean I’ve known Russell for twelve, I think it’s twelve years now so you know sort of when Russell was living with David and Fiona I was obviously there a lot as well so yes we know those, we’ve known them very well. Obviously we know Rachael as well, Matt’s partner, but again, as I say we’ve been on holiday, we socialise a lot so yeah we’re very good friends. Kate and Gerry again we’d socialise with them, I didn’t know them as well as the others but I mean it was a very comfortable group, so.”

4078    “Okay. And what’s your line of work? Because a lot of the people involved in this group are medical aren’t they?”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “Are you?”
Reply    “No, no. Err sort of more of a marketing role. When I was in Leicester I was a marketing manager for a scientific supplies company and then when we first moved to Exeter I didn’t work for the first year, which was another reason for going on a Mark Warner holiday because that was like my week holiday in a way.”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err but now I’m working at the University in Exeter, sort of website, a web marketing role. Just two days a week.”

4078    “Ah so you’re good with technical equipment?”
Reply    “Well no…”

4078    “You didn’t speak up did you.”
Reply    “I’m not that’s the thing.”

4078    “Okay so how long have you known the MCCANN family?”
Reply    “I think, I’ve been trying to work out the first time I actually did first meet them but it was around about the time that Ella and Madeleine were born because Russell was working with Gerry at the Royal and I can remember, I honestly can’t remember the first time I actually met them exactly but it was around that time and we met them, I think it was at Dave and Fi’s house, because Fi knew Kate well at that point because they were both doing anaesthetics together at that stage.”

4078    “Right.”
Reply    “So Fi had spoken about Kate a lot and she was due around the same time as me err so yeah we sort of we got together around that time, so it’ll be two thousand and three.”

4078    “And how often would the group of you get together roughly?”
Reply    “Err, well as I say with Kate and Gerry we probably saw them two or three times a year but Dave and Fi we probably saw every week, if not more often because we just lived down the road, and Matt and Rachael they moved away, they were in London. Well they were in Leicester for a while and then they moved to London so again, less, less often.”

4078    “Okay. Who did you travel to Portugal with?”
Reply    “Err Matt and Rachael. Because I went from Gatwick.”

4078    “Did they, did they come and stay with you over night or did you just meet them at Gatwick?”
Reply    “Err no we went and stayed because we’d moved to Exeter at that point so we went and stayed with them the night before and then it was an early morning flight.”

4078    “Of course they’re London aren’t they?”
Reply    “Yeah they’re London yeah, so we went and stayed with them the night before and then we all got a taxi, no, well we were going to get a taxi to the airport but the taxi didn’t turn up so we did have to drive in the end to the airport.”

4078    “Okay. Right, do you feel there’s anything more to ask about the relationship between the group that we haven’t already covered?”
Reply    “Err, no I think just the thing I’d like is the fact I think for something to come on to later, is probably with Kate and Gerry I didn’t know them as well as I knew the rest of the group and I just would like yeah, the rest I’d see a lot whereas Kate and Gerry were more, we’d see them every now and again.”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So, but I would like to stress that because I think that’s very relevant when it comes to things later on really.”

4078    “Okay. Well don’t let’s forget that.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “We can come on to that part.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Err I think I’ve read somewhere that, was it Ella had a foot operation?”
Reply    “Yes, the week before. It didn’t go…”

4078    “You got your timing’s wrong.”
Reply    “Err yeah the week before we went she was in hospital because she had, well she had a small abscess on her foot which sort of got some bug in it that caused her to have very high temperatures so they had to do a very minor operation just to take the puss out to, you know, to do that, and I think she came out of hospital on the wed, I think it was the Wednesday, and we sort of asked a lot of medical advice as to whether we should go or not and we very, so close that we didn’t go but then in the end we thought well if we go there’s probably more distractions for her there with the friends being there than being stuck at home with us and I say the Doctor said there was no problem in going as long as we kept her out the pool for the first bit so yeah, err so we were this close to, well I say it was almost like we weren’t going to go and then we suddenly at the end of the day said…”

4078    “What if.”
Reply    “Yeah, okay we will go.”

4078    “That’s my stomach started to rumble, that’s rather typical of me at this time of the morning I’m afraid. So by the time you went on holiday, Ella was fit and well?”
Reply    “She was fine apart from err her foot, she couldn’t wear her shoe so we bought her some mike stuff slippers so she was wearing slippers just to keep it covered, but yeah compared to how poorly she was the actual abscess on her foot was tiny, it was sort of a toxic shock type bug so it made her poorly than the actual cut on her foot so to speak.”

4078    “Okay. Right let’s move on then to the actual going on holiday.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “And you say you stayed with Matt and Rachael.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Can you remember who you flew with? And not as in Matt and Rachael, but the airline?”
Reply    “XL Airways was it? I really can’t remember. I think it was XL, err yeah I think it was XL Airways but I can’t remember to be honest.”

4078    “Well tell me what you can remember about the journey.”
Reply    “Err I say it was quite, because we’d booked a taxi, a big taxi so that we could all get in with car seats obviously for the kids, to take us from Matthew’s but that didn’t turn up or I think they just sent one with no car seats so in the end we had to, we all drove so we all ended up having to drive to the airport. Err and then, I mean I can’t really remember anything different about it, obviously we went into the airport, I think we went through fairly, fairly quickly because I think we were actually probably a bit late because of the taxi, the taxi incident. Err and then I mean I really can’t, the kids were excited so they were, Ella was running around especially err but no I mean I don’t remember anything, we were towards the back, we sat towards the back of the plane in terms of where we sat on the plane, we would have been towards the back of the plane. I don’t think we spoke to anybody, I think we were sitting behind Matt and Rachael so we sort of spoke to them you know they were like looking back and Grace was looking back over the seats but I can’t remember talking to anybody else specifically, specifically on the plane.”

4078    “So would Grace be about the same, similar age to Evie?”
Reply    “She’s, yeah, she’s four days older than Evie, yeah.”

4078    “Okay. What time of day was it when you arrived in Portugal?”
Reply    “It was about lunch time, I think it was about eleven, ten, eleven, ten, eleven o’ clock.”

4078    “And what happened when you got there?”
Reply    “Err we were met by the Mark Warner people and then sent to, sent to different, you know to the bus to be taken to the, to the resort.”

4078    “Okay, and how long was the transfer?”
Reply    “I think it was about an hour, yeah round about an hour, forty five minutes, an hour.”

4078    “I know, because I’ve read you’ve been to Portugal a couple of times before then.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Have you ever been to Praia Da Luz before?”
Reply    “No, no I’ve visited, I haven’t stayed in Lagos but I’ve visited Lagos but no I’ve never been to, I’ve never been that way, it’s been more South where (inaudible).”

4078    “Right, am I pronouncing it right, Praia Da, how do you say it?”
Reply    “Yeah Praia Da Luz.”

4078    “I’m just copying what I’ve seen on the news.”
Reply    “Right (inaudible).”

4078    “(Inaudible) beginning of interviews. And err consequently, I didn’t say at the beginning of the interview, it’s the eighth of April.”
Reply    “Oh right.”

4078    “And we started the interview about ten o’ clock. I should remember that at the beginning really, not had my coffee. Right so you’ve arrived at the resort.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “And what was the procedure when you arrived there?”
Reply    “Err I think they dropped us outside the door to the Ocean Club bar, the door to actually the Tapas restaurant so on the road there. I think the bus dropped us off there and took all our luggage out and I think somebody showed us to the room. We’d been given, on the bus, we’d been given a pack with you know where our room was, a little map, etcetera. I can’t remember who, I can’t remember if somebody showed us, I presumed somebody showed us to the room but I can’t remember who that was or what, but yeah they sort of dropped us because it’s a bit of a, it’s different, the places they have are sort of dotted around the village so they did a drop off at the top of the road then they did a drop off for us and then they probably did another one after us.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “There was err, just on this point, err when we actually were driving there, there was two of the nannies sat behind us on the bus, that’s the only people I can remember on the bus and one of those was Charlotte PENNINGTON and one of them was another nanny that was starting that, err that week, but they were actually sat behind us on the bus because I can remember hearing them when they were talking.”

4078    “Right. Did you speak to them or did you just…”
Reply    “No I didn’t, well not, I don’t think so no. I think it was just they were just talking and you could tell that, I just knew they were both starting that day.”

4078    “Okay. The rest of the group did they arrive before you or after you?”
Reply    “Afterwards.”

4078    “Okay, so you’ve established which apartment you’re staying in.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “Err which apartment was that by the way?”
Reply    “Err,  five D.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Does that sound right? I think it was five D. Yeah it was definitely D, I think it was five. Yeah, no it was five D.”

4078    “And where was that, I’ve got a plan actually, I’ll show you the plan, if you just confirm in your own mind… Actually this one doesn’t show it. This particular picture just obviously shows Kate and Gerry’s apartment.”
Reply    “Ah right yeah.”

ALARM SOUNDED, ALL PERSONS EXITED THE INTERVIEW ROOM.
The interview ceased at 1018 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
SIGNATURE (Sgd) 
SLS

Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview II

L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y
Form MG15(T)
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No
Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 43
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 08.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1028 hours
Time Concluded: 1129 hours Duration of Interview: 61 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos: SVF/104
Other Persons Present None

4078    “Right it is now twenty eight minutes past ten on the eighth of April obviously we were interviewing before and the fire alarm went off.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Just to reiterate I’m DC Sophie FERGUSON from the Major Crime Unit in Leicestershire. And you are?”
Reply    “Jane Michelle TANNER.”

4078    “Thanks Jane, and as before, just say if you want a break, you’re here voluntarily.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “So it’s up to you what you do.”
Reply    “That’s fine, yeah.”

4078    “We’ve been covering how you knew the MCCANN’S.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “The journey from England to Portugal and we’ve just got to the point where you’ve been allocated your apartment.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “In Praia Da Luz.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And I think I asked when the rest of the group arrived.”
Reply    “Yeah, I think it was about an hour and a half, an hour and a half, two hours after, after we’d arrived. I think we’d just been to the Supermarket and just had a wander around and they, and then they pulled up outside the apartments and they were brought up in one of the actual Mark Warner minibuses, I think they were taken to the reception first and then brought up.”

4078    “Right. How did you arrange that you were going to meet up?”
Reply    “Err I don’t think we did, we had actually requested that we had apartments close together, that was one of the things we’d asked when we’d booked so I think we were just hoping that would be the case and if not we had the mobile phone, so we knew vaguely what time their flight was due.”

4078    “Can we just cover that then there you’d arranged to have apartments close together, what was the reasoning behind that?”
Reply    “Err I think just so that, we didn’t want to be sort of right at different ends of the resort because we knew that we were going on holiday together, and we thought with this with a Mark Warner you know would it be better going to a villa so that you know we could, we could talk to each other and be close together so we didn’t want to be at other ends, other ends of the resort.”

4078    “Okay. Where was your apartment in relation to Kate and Gerry’s?”
Reply    “Err so it was A, B, there was an empty one, I think it was empty, in between and we were here, so we were D.”

4078    “Okay. On the ground floor?”
Reply    “On the ground floor, yeah.”

4078    “Okay so tell me what you did then from the time that you’d been shopping and everyone else had arrived.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “What happened from then as far as you can remember?”
Reply    “Err it’s so long ago but I think they all arrived, they obviously went to their apartments, I think we went up to Dave and Fi’s apartment which was on the second floor because theirs was the biggest, theirs was sort of the biggest apartment of the ones that we had so we went up there and then later I think there was like a welcome meeting when they talk about you know all the things there are to do. I think that was sort of about four o’ clock down in the, it was actually in the tapas restaurant where they did that welcome meeting so I think we went down to that, to that afterwards, but I can’t, I can’t remember what we did specifically in the time in between. I think we just had something to eat and just I think we were in Dave and Fi’s apartment, but.

4078    “Okay, well I know we spoke on the journey here this morning and you were saying that you’d do your best to remember but you were worried that, because you didn’t know what your true recollections were…”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “Anymore, because of the amount of discussion there’s been.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And stuff that you’ve read.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And heard other people say. Well don’t worry we can’t change that now.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And you know it is only what you can remember to the best of your ability.”
Reply    “Yeah I’m just conscious, I don’t want to remember something that didn’t happen and then that would be seen as oh that wasn’t what you said last time.”

4078    “No it’s not a test, you know.”
Reply    “I mean obviously this is…”

4078    “I’m not trying to trip you up.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “It’s just to try go, and just go back as far as we can.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “So you know if you can’t remember and I’ve asked a question and you think…”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “I don’t know now, just say I don’t know now.”
Reply    “Okay.”

4078    “It doesn’t matter at all and equally if you’re sort of saying yeah I think that might have happened but that might only be because somebody’s told me that.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “So just clarify that.”
Reply    “Yeah, no I will do, yeah.”

4078    “Right. You say you sort of just, as far as you can remember, you went to the welcome meeting.”
Reply    “Yeah, and I think that was about four o’ clock because there was one for the childcare bit of it and then after that they had one for the other activities, so we were there for sort of quite a while.”

4078    “What were your intentions for the holiday at that stage?”
Reply    “In terms of?”

4078    “How many activities you would be doing and what the children would be doing.”
Reply    “Ah right, err we didn’t really think, I think we thought Ella would definitely be going to the kids club because as I explained before I almost felt bad that she wasn’t getting that much kid attention in Exeter. Err and Evie probably go to the kids club in the morning but then stay with us, stay with us in the afternoon and that morning would give, well me a break you know to do, to do something else but at that point I hadn’t really, I hadn’t really thought about what that would be or, you know, whatever.”

4078    “So during the welcome meeting did you have to sign up to anything regular or was it just available if you want it?”
Reply    “Err, you signed up then and that’s when I signed up for the tennis which I hadn’t really been planning to do but then I think Kate was signing up for that and then I just thought yeah that’d be a, that’d be a nice, you know, something nice to do.”

4078    “Was that an event that was going to happen every morning?”
Reply    “Yeah that was a tennis lesson every morning, I think it was at, I think it was nine o’ clock but it might have been nine thirty but it was every morning until the end of the week.”

4078    “Was there anything else that you signed up for?”
Reply    “Err I signed up for, actually I think, thinking about it I think I signed up for the tennis later, no, yeah I did I signed up for the tennis later and I did a taster session because at that first welcome meeting I signed up for windsurfing and sailing because I was like I’ve got some time to do stuff so it was always like we had, you know, I thought, so I signed up for the windsurfing and the sailing but then later on they did a sort of a social tennis and that’s when I decided okay, right, I’ll do the tennis instead.”

4078    “Something’s got to give.”
Reply    “Yeah, so, it’s supposed to be a holiday, so yeah then I didn’t do the sailing then.”

4078    “Okay, I shan’t ask you all about Russell because he’ll be covering that on his interview anyway.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “Do you remember where you ate on that first day?”
Reply    “The Millennium, the Millennium Restaurant.”

4078    “Okay, and tell me what you can remember about that.”
Reply    “Err well we all went together with all the children, I think we caused a bit of chaos when we first arrived though because we were trying to put, there was obviously quite a lot of us and they were trying to put all the tables together and get high chairs for the children so yeah they probably thought oh no who’s arrived sort of thing. So err yeah and it was, it worked well, I think the kids had started to get a bit cranky purely because, especially like well they’d been up since like, I think we were up at like five in the morning to get the flight so, but I can’t remember anybody feeling particularly cranky but I think they were. They were obviously getting quite tired at that stage.”

4078    “And how busy was the resort? Because I’ve not been there at that time of year.”
Reply    “Not that busy really, I think it was one of the first, it was one of the first weeks that it had been open in terms of the Mark Warner side of it, so it wasn’t, there was, I don’t think there was, there was probably four or five other tables in the Millennium, maybe a few more, but not many.”

4078    “So you formed the majority of the guests there?”
Reply    “I think yeah I mean I think people would’ve seen us just purely because we made so much hassle by trying to put the tables together and you know there was, yeah, there was, I’m trying to think now, there were other people there but it wasn’t full by , by any means.”

4078    “And when you’d had your meal, what did you do after that?”
Reply    “I think we all, we all went back and we sort of half said oh, you know, shall we meet up later or you know just sort of, but we, no, I mean we just sort of went to bed so I think it was because Matt at that point I think, I don’t know whether Matt was feeling ill by that point but Matt was actually ill that first night so I don’t know whether he was feeling ill at that point but I know  we just said ah let’s, we’re too tired you know we’ll just go straight to bed.”

4078    “Okay, so that was the Saturday wasn’t it, when you got there?”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “So that’s the Saturday covered.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Is there anything that we’ve missed out from the Saturday that you can remember that I haven’t asked?”
Reply    “Err, no I don’t think so, no.”

4078    “Okay. I know you’re going to find this hard, particularly because you know between the Sunday and the Wednesday…”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And the events weren’t significant really were they so it’s going to be even harder for you to remember.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “But we’ll try and cover those as best we can.”
Reply    “Okay.”

4078    “If I just start by the Sunday and ask you what you can remember about it.”
Reply    “Yeah I think that first Sunday Ella didn’t go to the kids club straight away purely because it’s the first day there and obviously because she had been poorly the week before we thought we’d just see how she, how she is you know before she goes, so she didn’t go, she didn’t go to the kids club. I can’t remember if Evie did, I think she probably did, I mean I can’t see any reason why she wouldn’t have done so I think she probably went to the kids club in the morning err I honestly can’t remember what we did that morning. I don’t know, I don’t think, I think the tennis lesson, I can’t remember whether the tennis lesson started that day or the next day but err so I think, no I can’t remember apart from the fact I know Ella didn’t go, so I presume we stayed with Ella or either Russell or myself you know stayed with Ella by the pool because there’s like a park area by the pool, so.”

4078    “Do you remember what eating arrangements you had that day?”
Reply    “We went, that was the first day that we went to the, the Tapas bar.”

4078    “And when was it decided that you’d be going there?”
Reply    “Err I think at the welcome meeting they err the welcome meeting they said about the different eating arrangements and I think at that stage we thought oh it’d be good to eat there because we could err monitor the children err so and I think we tried to book it so that morning when we got up, I don’t know who booked it that first day, but somebody went.”

4078    “But not Russell?”
Reply    “But it wouldn’t have been Russell, no, definitely wouldn’t have been Russell. He err whoever booked it I think went either before we went to breakfast or straight after breakfast because you have to try and book it quite early in the morning to get in.”

4078    “And was it something you’d have to do daily, or is that an ongoing arrangement?”
Reply    “Well normally you would have to but I think Rachael spoke to them on the second or third day and somehow managed to persuade them to let us go there, let us go there every night, so, I don’t know. I think, I’m sure it was Rachael that did that, not Russell.”

4078    “You mentioned breakfast.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Am I right in thinking you went to the Millennium?”
Reply    “We went to the Millennium for breakfast yeah. I think that first morning on the Sunday everybody, the whole group went that first, well I’m not sure if Dave and Fi did but I know Kate and Gerry went that first morning to the Millennium Restaurant and I think they found it quite a, a trail to get because they’d got three kids, the ones that were two, they were carrying the twins and dragging Madeleine so I think then after that they decided they’d have breakfast in their room after their first day because it was a bit of a, not an ordeal, but it was a bit of a trek to get back.”

4078    “Ah it is, the children to get out of bed in the morning.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Then you want your breakfast.”
Reply    “Yeah, so, but I think that first day we did all go so I can’t say for sure for Dave and Fi, but…”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “The rest of us definitely did.”

4078    “So you can remember having your breakfast at the Millennium.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And err you’re not sure about tennis. You think Ella was with you…”
Reply    “Ella definitely didn’t go kids club that first, that first morning.”

4078    “And it was the first time you ate at the Tapas?”
Reply    “Yes.”

4078    “Okay, since it was the first time, if you take your mind back to the first time you went there, what had happened before you went, how had the, you know, while driving that it, what were the arrangements for the children before you went?”
Reply    “Yeah, well this is where I worry that I alerted somebody to maybe what we were doing because I actually went down, before we went down I went down with my monitor to check if it was working because Dave and Fi had a monitor which was quite a good one, a very high spec monitor, whereas ours wasn’t such high spec so I was worried that it wouldn’t work in the Tapas bar.”

4078    “Wasn’t the cups and string was it.”
Reply    “Not quite that bad err so I actually did before we went down to eat err we actually, I actually went down, just stood in the restaurant with the monitor just to check that it did and it was on the edge of its, you know, it worked but not, I wasn’t completely confident in, totally confident in it. So as I say looking back on it now you think oh, I did that, could that have actually shown somebody what we were doing, you know, me standing there like an idiot with my bloody monitor, you know, that sort of, that has crossed my mind since but I think we decided before we went, one of the attractions of a Mark Warner holiday was the baby listening service that they normally offer.”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And we did know that they didn’t offer it, offer it there and we sort of thought, at that point we thought we can either do it between ourselves and one night one couple you know stay back and then do the baby listening or, but then when we found where we were and the proximity to the restaurant we just sort of thought if we are checking and doing the baby listening as is done in other Mark Warner resorts we should be okay, which it obviously wasn’t, but that was, that was the thought process behind it.”

4078    “Yeah, and some of these things I know will come on to what you’ve got to say later on with hindsight.”
Reply    “Yeah, oh with hindsight it’s…”

4078    “You’re going to feel differently. And I know that, because I’ve spoken to you before, you feel guilty sometimes about…”
Reply    “Of course.”

4078    “What happened.”
Reply    “Of course yeah totally, and you’d look back now and think yes probably we were stupid but I think we were lulled into a false sense of security because this baby listening service is offered in other places and yeah you look at it now knowing what happened and you’d think ah yes you know we were probably reckless but it didn’t feel like that because this is a service that is offered, you know, marketed as a service in other resorts and we felt we were doing more than is maybe offered there.”

4078    “And your judgement at the time you considered that you’d be able to cover the, you checking on the children from the proximity of the restaurant?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “And you felt okay with what…”
Reply    “I think with that plus the monitor that we had I think we just thought yes it’s fine and I think you know your own children, again, we were proved wrong because Evie did wake up but they tend to, they sleep well, if they wake up it tends to be in the middle of the night, not early on, you know. And things like that you just, we were just weighing it up and it seemed a reasonable risk, well I did think of it as a reasonable risk then it just, we thought it would be fine.”

4078    “Because I know, I mean so many things are different with hindsight.”
Reply    “Oh yeah.”

4078    “And this is not to make you…”
Reply    “No, no, no I think it’s important to…”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Because you know we’ve obviously got this image that we were like ah, ‘F’ the kids, we’ll go off to the Tapas bar they’ll be fine, and it wasn’t like that at all. It was a, you know, it was something that is offered elsewhere and we just thought, you don’t imagine in a million years that, I mean we were probably more worried about them waking up and thinking where are we.”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But I mean Ella knows to shout down the monitor if, because she’s used them at home you know, so, and you just think, I don’t know, at that point I was, it never crossed my mind that somebody could take them, that wasn’t even a concern. It was more would they wake up, you know, and that was…”

4078    “And if they did then you would be alerted to that and you would be there within minutes.”
Reply    “And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”

4078    “Yeah, that’s what her bed was. So Ella was in the bed and…”
Reply    “Ella was in her bed.”

4078    “And Evie was in the cot.”
Reply    “Evie was in the cot yeah.”

4078    “And what was, if you were to go in through the, well I know we’ve discussed this in the office and it’s difficult to say the front door or the back door of the apartment because there’s some confusion.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “If we were to say poolside and roadside, would that make it clearer as to what I was referring to?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “Which, which entrance did you use mostly?”
Reply    “For checking or for anything?”

4078    “For anything. Was there a check, that you’d use mostly?”
Reply    “Err the back, the roadside entrance because you couldn’t actually get in to the err the poolside entrance but there was no key to get in from the outside so you could only get in there if it was unlocked. It was sort of like a, you know like patio doors have a…”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Thing that goes up and down.”

4078    “Oh right.”
Reply    “So the only time we’d have probably used the back, the poolside entrance is during the day if somebody else was in there already.”

4078    “Okay, so when you went out for your meal…”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “In the evening, the poolside door was always locked in your apartment.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “So when you did your treks you had to go in through the roadside?”
Reply    “Back, yeah through the back door.”

4078    “Was that a longer journey?”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Having not been there I’m just imagining.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah it is longer.”

4078    “And how long would it take you to walk from the Tapas to your apartment?”
Reply    “Err I don’t know, a minute and a half, yeah about a minute and a half.”

4078    “Not long at all?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, no it’s plenty, I mean no longer than I’d say two, no I don’t even think it would be two minutes, a minute.”

4078    “And did you leave your roadside door locked or was it unlocked?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah well we made, as I said we made sure that was because you could dead lock it as well and that was one of our concerns was Ella waking up and wandering, I mean like I say we didn’t think she would but that was probably our, you know so she couldn’t get out the actual apartment, that was err so we did make sure that was dead locked every night.”

4078    “Was your apartment the same layout as the MCCANN’S or was it slightly different?”
Reply    “Err I think it was the same more or less.”

4078    “Okay. Can you just have a quick look at that and just in your own mind if you’re happy that it’s similar.”
Reply    “Yeah that’s almost exact, almost exactly the same.”

4078    “So you, when you went back to check for them you’ve gone through…”
Reply    “This one here.”

4078    “That door there?”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And then sort of first right into the children’s bedroom?”
Reply    “Yeah they were in the same room.”

4078    “And how did you get into the habit, what habit did you get into of leaving either of the shutters or the windows shut…”
Reply    “We never opened those shutters at all the whole time we were there because it was great because it made the room really dark so it was good for them sleeping.”

4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “And we didn’t use that room in the day so I don’t think we ever, well I certainly never even, never opened them or shut them.”

4078    “Okay. Just, one I’m sort of trying to familiarise myself on how things were.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “What was the weather like when you were there?”
Reply    “It wasn’t, again it wasn’t brilliant, I think it was nicer in the UK.”

4078    “So you went on the wrong day.”
Reply    “Yeah, I think err so it wasn’t, that’s one reason why we didn’t open the shutters to open the window or anything in that room, it wasn’t actually really hot at all, it was actually quite cloudy in the days and at night it was actually quite chilly.”

4078    “So it wasn’t sort of going in the pool weather or, only if you’re very brave.”
Reply    “No it was really, really cold, I mean I think Russell went in because he’s a nutter and goes in the Atlantic in February but no it was more, after, it got warmer after so we did go in the pool after May the third but no before that I don’t think we, maybe we’d been in once and then decided it was a bad idea.”

4078    “Okay. So where have we got to then, we were talking about the first meal that you went into the Tapas, and so we’ve covered what arrangements were in place, in your own mind what, you know you felt happy and you’d thought about the possibilities of the children waking up but you’d kind of covered that because of the monitor…”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And you knew that they would be safe within the apartment because they wouldn’t be able to wander out.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “Okay. Can you remember much about that first meal?”
Reply    “Err no, to be honest, no, nothing specific at all really. I think, again, in hindsight stupidly but I think we thought ah this works, this works quite well you know it does, it’s quite a good way of, it means we can have some you know time in the evening and at that point we felt happy that we were doing enough for the children.”

4078    “Do you remember if everybody was present in that first meal?”
Reply    “Everybody was except Matt, who had, I think it was, oh no it was, err again I’m not sure now whether Matt was not there on the Millennium night or the first Tapas night but I think it was the first Tapas night because he’d got some sort of bug which then went round quite a few of the others. But err yeah I think it was Matt, might, wasn’t there, so it was either that night or the Millennium night, but.”

4078    “Okay. Up until this point then, Sunday evening this would be, had there been a kind of discussion between the group about child care or was it something that just sort of happened as you went along?”
Reply    “Err…”

4078    “The reason I ask is because I’m aware that later on in the group people started to take it in turns to check other people’s children.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “How did that come about?”
Reply    “I think we just probably became more comfortable with the arrangements and it was sort of like a pop your head in if you, I think the first night I think we were all checking our own but as we became more comfortable with it, it was if one person was going back they would listen, listen you know at the door as well so, I don’t think, it wasn’t a, I don’t think it was a specific decision right now we all stopped, we’ll start checking on each other’s children, it was just a you know, you’re going back, you know, have a, have a listen as well.”

4078    “And was there any kind of set time that you started…”
Reply    “Yeah we did try to do it every half an hour and I’d say out of everybody Kate and Gerry were the, the most strict on that, they were, we almost took them as the lead at times for when we, you know when we checked because they were definitely, you know were definitely every half an hour whereas we were the same, we probably did it at course, you know we probably do it because we tend to get to there at different times but err but you know I think it was more or less, more or less every, every half an hour.”

4078    “I don’t want to run the risk of grouping all the meals at Tapas as one.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “In general, I’ve generalised it, so I’ll try and stick to the Monday and the Tuesday and the Wednesday if that’s okay?”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “On Sunday evening then do you remember what kind of time you went back?”
Reply    “I don’t think it was that late because, because we’d been going all day I think we were still quite tired from the, the err the getting up early the day before.”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So I’d say it’d probably be about ten, half ten.”

4078    “Okay. And what do you remember about the Monday?”
Reply    “I definitely had a tennis lesson that day and I think Ella went to the kids club that day because she was sort of saying why couldn’t she, she was wanting to go at that point, err so yeah they both, both of the girls went to the kids club, Evie only in the morning but I think Ella probably did go both, you know both sessions so the morning then came back to us for lunch and then…”

4078    “Did Evie only go in the mornings?”
Reply    “She only ever went in the mornings yeah but there was a couple of days she didn’t go, which we’ll come to.”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err will come later but err yeah so they would have gone there, I’d have probably had, I think it was probably, it probably was the first tennis lesson, or it could have been the second I’m not sure so that would have been from nine till half ten or whenever.”

4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “And I think from that I then went to windsurfing because I’d already booked in to that so it was like straight from that so we went down to the beach and then came back from that and then picked the children up about, I think it’s half twelve you have to pick them up and had lunch. I don’t know where we had lunch but we often tended to have lunch in err Dave and Fi’s room, again because it was a bigger room and we just tended to congregate there.”

4078    “Did everybody do that?”
Reply    “They did but apart from Kate and Gerry often had it in their own, their own apartment, err I don’t know whether they ever came, I don’t think they ever, I think they tended to have lunch, lunch in their own apartment but their, Sean and Amelie tended to go back to the kids club in the afternoon whereas err the rest of us, because they were younger they didn’t, so.”

4078    “What’s, what, how do they compare in age to Evie?”
Reply    “Err they were three in February and Evie’s three in September so, a bit of maths, they’re about six, seven months older.”

4078    “Yeah (inaudible).”
Reply    “Yeah, about six, seven months older.”

4078    “Right, okay, so on the Monday you tennis’ed, windsurfed, picked up Evie.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And Ella.”
Reply    “Yeah for lunch. I think Ella went back, I can’t say for sure but I think Ella went back in the afternoon. Err then I think we just took Evie down by the pool, we didn’t go in but we just sort of sat, sat, sat by the pool in the afternoon.”

4078    “Okay, you mentioned when you were talking about your tennis lessons that Kate signed up for it as well.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Did anybody else from the group go with you?”
Reply    “Rachael, and Rachael as well.”

4078    “So would it have been the three of you every morning on your own or were there other people around?”
Reply    “No there was other people with us, I think there was six of us.”

4078    “Okay. So Monday afternoon you were sitting by the pool and the playing area was near there. Can you remember what else happened on the Monday?”
Reply    “No, no I don’t, I don’t, I think they, well I think we were in there and then we took the children, they go, you can give the children tea, they do like a tea and I think that was at five so we’d have, I think we were just round there. We took Evie back up because if they stay in the kids club the nannies bring them for tea and then you can pick them up from tea but because Evie wasn’t in we went and took Evie, and I think we actually went and picked Ella up that day, other days the nannies walked them up from the other one but I think we actually went to pick Ella up and took her to tea but again that might not be, that might not be correct, but.”

4078    “And would the whole of the group be in there at tea?”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Is that the adults as well or just the, just one of the adults from each group?”
Reply    “Err I think for a start it was all the adults and then maybe later in the week there would be just one of them but I think on the whole it was most of us, it’s quite a nice and sociable tea.”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Because that’s probably when you got to talk to other, other people as well.”
4078    “So it’s kind of a focal point in the day really…”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Where you can all get together.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “And how long would the tea process last?”
Reply    “Probably about forty five minutes, half an hour, forty five minutes.”

4078    “That’s long enough for children at that time.”
Reply    “Exactly, yeah.”

4078    “That used to be my worst time of day when mine were younger.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “It’s a long evening (inaudible).”
Reply    “It’s the witching hour.”

4078    “Okay, so the Monday then you probably would have gone to the Millennium bar with all the children for tea. Was it the Millennium?”
Reply    “No it was that was the Sat…”

4078    “Tapas?”
Reply    “No well they had their tea, so on the Monday they had their tea which is in the Tapas bar.”

4078    “Tapas bar (inaudible).”
Reply    “And then after they’d had their tea we always tend to take them to the play area, we’d sort of go to the play area and have a run around, you know, after tea and that’s when everybody would probably be, you know, we’d all get together after the day.”

4078    “And how warm would it be by that time of the day?”
Reply    “Err I’m trying to remember it was quite, cardigan weather, I mean not, it wasn’t you know it was by no means warm, it was probably sort of cardigan weather by, by that stage, or, or I’m trying to remember if it varied I think there was a couple of nice days but there was definitely a couple of days when it was really cloudy and quite, you know, quite chilly for what you’d expect. Because I remember reading in the paper or somebody saying in England it’s really warm and we’re thinking, hmm (inaudible).”

4078    “Okay. So from the children’s tea at the Tapas you’ve gone back to the play area and this happened most days.”
Reply    “Yeah, that was most, yeah.”

4078    “And this particular Monday might have been the first time that Matthew had been to the Tapas bar if he was poorly on the Sunday night.”
Reply    “Yeah and if not it was the first night, it was the night he was away from the table.”

4078    “Right, okay. So with that in mind then can you remember the meal that night at all, at the Tapas?”
Reply    “Not really in relation to any of the others, no I mean it was just the same, the same, you know that’s really, I can’t remember who else was in there. Most nights we tended to be a bit later than a lot of people who probably go a bit earlier and they’d be going back so we often found that we’d be the last ones in there.”

4078    “As in the group?”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Or just you and Russell?”
Reply    “No, no the group, I think we sort of had a, tried, well the table was booked for half eight I think whereas a lot of people I think sort of went half seven, eight o’ clock.”

4078    “And, this is probably a silly question but on the evenings where you had the meals what sort of conversations were being had?”
Reply    “Pfft…”

4078    “Wide ranging ones?”
Reply    “Yeah just normal ones, yeah so I mean the nice, I say we moved away so it was nice to be able to catch up you know but there was nothing I suppose with a bunch of Doctors there’s probably quite a lot of work talk from them in some ways but err no I can’t, nothing, I think more or less what we’d been doing in the day, what we’d been doing you know about our move to Exeter, probably at that stage in the week we were probably talking about our move to Exeter quite a bit because obviously you know we’re catching up on that.”

4078    “And did you relationships change at all with your friends over those few days, before Madeleine went missing?”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “Did you forge a stronger relationship for example with Kate and Gerry (inaudible)?”
Reply    “Yeah definitely, yeah I think definitely and especially with the tennis lessons with Kate as well, definitely because I think before we went you know they were the two people in the group that, for me, I knew we’d get on with Dave and Fiona, I knew we’d get on well with Matt and Rachael just because you know they’re sort of probably our best friends so to speak so, but yeah and err it was nice to be able to get to know Kate and Gerry, Kate and Gerry better?”

4078    “Okay. And what did you think of them at that stage?”
Reply    “Yeah they were nice, normal people, yeah you know, sort of, that’s the thing, I mean Gerry, the sort of person Gerry is, I could never see us being best buddies because he’s very, we’re very different. I think he’s very err he’s quite forthright and so I don’t think we’d ever be best friends but there’s no problem there or anything like that you know, I feel bad saying that because it makes it sound like there is a problem but there’s not but you know it’s not, whereas Kate I was really, I was getting to know Kate quite well but yeah I think Gerry is sort of like more of a man’s man maybe.”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “That sounds terrible, I don’t mean that at all.”

4078    “No.”
Reply    “But you know I think out of the two I was probably, I know Kate better than I know Gerry.”

4078    “Right, it was a very specific question I asked anyway, so what you’re saying is his character is the sort of character that you probably wouldn’t naturally have…”
Reply    “No I think he’s, we’re probably very different, I think he’s err yeah I’m trying to put it in to words because if I say he, he doesn’t intimidate me in any shape or form but you know what I mean I think he’s probably the person out of the whole group that I would feel least comfortable with, you know, just on, just chatting because we probably haven’t got as much in common.”

4078    “Yeah, but with Kate it was…”
Reply    “With Kate it was fine yeah. That sounds terrible to say and it’s not meant to sound like that at all. But it’s just…”

4078    “Well it’s just a question I asked.”
Reply    “Yeah and it’s just being honest yeah. I think out of everybody in the group Gerry’s probably the one that I know the least, least well.”

4078    “And so how did you, how did you feel about Kate?”
Reply    “Yeah, no, really yes I was getting to know her, I say it was nice to have the opportunity to get to know, get to know Kate and yeah she’s lovely, so yeah we sort of, I think we were you know forming more of a, more of a friendship.”

4078    “Okay. Right, so back to the Monday evening then you can’t really remember the Monday evening.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “If anything significant had happened I’m sure you would have remembered it.”
Reply    “Mm, yeah.”

4078    “So we’ll assume then that nothing significant happened on the Monday.”
Reply    “Yeah, I can’t think of anything, no.”

4078    “And coming on to the Tuesday then, which would be by then it’d be the first of May.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “I think.”
Reply    “Yeah probably.”

4078    “What do you remember about the Tuesday, if anything at this stage?”
Reply    “Err I, nothing specific, I would have had the tennis lesson.”

4078    “Ella would have had her second morning at the…”
Reply    “Yeah I think Ella definitely went then. I can’t remember, by this stage Evie had got a bit of the squits, probably to the better phrase, so I think she was still going, I can’t, there was a couple of mornings that she didn’t go to the kids club because I didn’t think it was fair because she’d got a bit of a runny, runny nappy so to speak so, but I think, I can’t remember whether it was that morning or the next morning but I think, I think she did go, I think she did go that day.”

4078    “Okay. Do you remember anything on the Tuesday? Had you booked to do anything, any other activity? Or did you go anywhere different?”
Reply    “Err I don’t think so because I had booked originally to do the sailing but that was at the same time as the err tennis lesson so I didn’t do that. Err I’m trying to think what we did after, I’m trying to think what I did after tennis lesson but I can’t. No I can’t remember any.”

4078    “Okay.
Reply    “Nothing specific.”

4078    “And during the afternoon you’d have had Evie with you.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Or Russell would have had Evie.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “With you and Russell and the girls, did you take it in turns to say right I’ll go and do something while you have the girls or did you pretty much just play it by ear?”
Reply    “Played it by ear really but we did sort of take it in turns, Evie tended to have a sleep after lunch so probably one of us would stay with Evie and read on the balcony or whatever while she was having a sleep and one would probably go down to the pool if people were there or vice versa or I’d stay with Evie whilst Russell took Ella back to the, the kids club so it depended really. I think some afternoons Russ took out the kayak, you know while Evie was asleep but I couldn’t say which ones or, you know, whenever.”

4078    “Okay. And you’ve already said that you were in the habit of going to David and Fiona’s for lunch.”
Reply    “Mm, yeah.”

4078    “Because they had the biggest apartment. Did you go into any of the other apartments?”
Reply    “We went in to Matt and Rachael’s apartment but I hadn’t been in to Kate and Gerry’s apartment until, well the night Madeleine went missing. I hadn’t been in to their apartment at all.”

4078    “Okay. Is there anything from the Tuesday that you can remember that would pinpoint what happened that day?”
Reply    “Err no, not really. I think there might have been a quiz that night in the Tapas bar but I’m not sure, I think there was, there was a quiz two nights and I can’t remember but I think there might have been a quiz that Tuesday night. Err but no I can’t think of anything else that would’ve, you know, anything else specifically about that day.”

4078    “Okay, you know when we spoke and you mentioned about your baby monitor?”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “And, I’ve got two questions; firstly, did you take that with you every night for the duration of the holiday?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah.”

4078    “And secondly, up until the Tuesday night, because that’s as far as we’ve got at the moment, is there anything else with hindsight that you have thought of about, that might have contributed to Madeleine’s disappearance?”
Reply    “Err, no I think the only thing that I have thought in retrospect is the fact that I went down to test the baby monitor that first, first night. I mean sometimes I put, because we were worried about the, what do you call it, the reach of the baby monitor, I sometimes put it, there was a wall behind me so I’d put it on there because it was slightly, slightly nearer because it’d start sort of squealing at times so, so that’s the only other thing I can think of because you know it wasn’t, sometimes we wouldn’t have been sitting at, I didn’t have it, so actually sitting on the table it was, it was on the wall where the tile (inaudible) were I sometimes had it on the wall there.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “I wasn’t convinced it was really always you know totally working.”

4078    “In relation to that staff at the Tapas.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “And in fact you know around, around the resort.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Are you able to say whether they were the same staff every day or did you notice a turnover?”
Reply    “Err no, I recognised most of the, it tended to be the same waiters every night, I think some nights maybe one wasn’t there but it tended to be the same, the same, the same ones. We tended to have, there was one, I don’t know his, I think he was the one that went to the papers actually, but there was one waiter that tended to do our table most nights or he seemed to take control of our table because I remember him, I can’t remember what night, but I can remember one night him saying ‘oh sorry I was away when your blah blah came out, is everything okay’ and he seemed you know I think he was worried that he’d not actually bought the meal to the table at that point.”

4078    “Right.”
Reply    “But that’s the only real, that’s the only sort of real thing I can remember about the waiters as such but, but I think it was the same ones.”

4078    “So, I say with the benefit of hindsight, up until this point, there’s nobody that stands out in your mind as…”
Reply    “No, nothing at all that did make me…”

4078    “(Inaudible).”
Reply    “No, there’s nothing, no.”

4078    “You know what I’m trying to ask.”
Reply    “Yeah I mean there’s nobody, and when we went back to do the checks, you know, you never really saw anybody because the resort was so quiet at this stage. I don’t think, I mean I can’t even think I ever saw anybody when I walked back from the check but no I never saw anybody at all apart from (inaudible).”

4078    “Yeah, okay. Well that’s something that I’m glad we covered then because I was going to ask you later on how, you know what were the comings and goings of other people like around that time.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “But as far as you remember it was very quiet.”
Reply    “It was very quiet yeah, I can’t, there might have been the odd person but not, but it was very, I say the resort was very quiet because it was early season really.”

4078    “And had you been to the beach yet by the Tuesday?”
Reply    “I’d been yeah because when I, when I did the windsurfing on the first day but no we hadn’t actually, I mean it seems really odd to go on holiday and you don’t go to the beach, but by this stage no we hadn’t, well I’d been but we hadn’t taken the children down to the beach.”

4078    “Okay. Right, so are we happy that we’ve covered what we should?”
Reply    “Actually I went for a run, sorry, err that would have probably been on the err it might have been on the Monday night actually, there was one night I went for a run just before dinner.”

4078    “Not content with your windsurfing and your tennis?”
Reply    “No I thought I’d…”

4078    “Make the best of it.”
Reply    “Yeah. I couldn’t walk the next day.”

4078    “Right.”
Reply    “Err yeah, no I went for a run so I actually went down to the beach then and sort of did a, did a loop round and I think that was the Monday night but again it, it’s either Sunday or the Monday.”

4078    “Okay. Did you go on your own? Or were you with…”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “Right, and what sort of length of time would that loop take?”
Reply    “Err, depending on the speed I was going…”
4078    “(Inaudible).”
Reply    “Err it was probably about forty minutes, half an hour, forty minutes.”

4078    “Any idea what that is distance wise?”
Reply    “Err, no, if you had a map I could show you where I went if that, I don’t know whether it’s relevant.”

4078    “Yeah I think it goes out, well if you can make much sense of that.”
Reply    “Err…”

4078    “That’s the Tapas bar.”
Reply    “Right, yeah, I think I sort of went down sort of to the beach here and then came along the front of the beach and then went up here and sort of, I think I sort of came, I came round here and then I came back down here. I’m not sure how far out at this bit but I came back down here again.”

4078    “I’ve absolutely no idea what this is.”
Reply    “But it was probably about two and a half, three, three miles.”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Two and a half.”

4078    “Okay. So about forty minutes you reckon?”
Reply    “Yeah I think it was probably yeah thirty, forty minutes.”

4078    “And you say you thought that was either the Sunday or the Monday.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “What sort of time of day would that have been?”
Reply    “Err probably I think it’s after the children had had tea so probably about half six ish, half six, seven I think.”

4078    “Okay. Can you remember what you wore to go for your run? I know that sounds silly, did you go for many runs while you were there?”
Reply    “No I was supposed to be training for a half marathon in September so I think that’s why I thought right, I’d better start, so that’s the reason I went for the run but what would I have worn, err tracksuit but it would’ve been, I wouldn’t have got my legs out so it would have been tracksuit bottoms and just a t-shirt I think.”

4078    “Right, okay, I only asked that because I was trying to gauge what the temperatures, you know, what it was, but I suppose if you’re running you’re going to get warm anyway so you probably wouldn’t wear as much as you would do ordinarily.”
Reply    “Yeah. I mean I don’t think it was shorts, I think I tend to run in tracksuit bottoms, so, but yeah, no I don’t know.”

4078    “Right, okay, so the Sunday or the Monday you went for a run.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “We’ve covered the Tuesday and you can’t at this stage remember anything specific, and again you’ve not referred to other statements yet.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “So this is just what you can remember.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Right, well we’ll come on to the Wednesday then.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “It’ll be Wednesday the second of May. What can you remember about the Wednesday?”
Reply    “Err actually go back to the Tues, there was one night, I don’t know whether it was Tuesday or Wednesday I mean there was one night when Russell didn’t come to dinner and I think it was the Wednesday but it could have been the Tuesday because Evie was sick. She was, that was the first time she was err actually sick, she used to have, the milk was like UHT milk and sometimes when she had that she’d just go, you know, and then she’d been fine again, fine again afterwards. So I think it was either the Tuesday or the Wednesday but I can’t remember which one.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “So that night is the night that Russell didn’t actually come to the restaurant so coming back to what you were saying about is there anything that would highlight to people what there is, I actually carried his meals back to the room on that night and I say I don’t know whether it’s the Tuesday or the Wednesday err because he was staying with Evie because at that point we thought oh we don’t want to leave her in case she is sick again err and I think it was two nights before the Thursday so I’d say it would be Tuesday, which is why I think it was the quiz night because Russell wasn’t there when it was the quiz night.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Sorry this is just…”

4078    “No that’s fine.”
Reply    “It’s so hard to remember the days but I think yeah, so he had, he stayed back there and I took his meals back to the, back to the room so that he could have it…”

4078    “And that was the quiz night Russell wasn’t there?”
Reply    “I think that was, well it was definitely, which ever night was the big quiz night, because there was two quiz nights. There was one quiz night where they just brought round a sheet of paper with pictures on or something and it was sort of lasted about five, ten minutes, but then there was a second quiz night which was a couple of rounds and that was, that was when Russell wasn’t there because we were thinking it would be quite good if he was there because he’s got a memory for silly facts.”

4078    “Right.”
Reply    “So it would have been quite useful. Err and that was the night that happened, I think it was, that was either the Tuesday or the Wednesday.”

4078    “Okay, can you remember whether the mini quiz if you like was before or after the main quiz?”
Reply    “The mini quiz was before the main quiz.”

4078    “Right, okay. So Tuesday or Wednesday and…”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “We may clarify that later on.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “When we can go through the end of the statements. Russell was staying with Evie because she’d been sick.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And you took his meals to him and that was the night you had the quiz night?”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Okay. What about during the day? Can you remember anything about the Wednesday during the day?”
Reply    “Err I had a tennis lesson in the morning and then that, it was then supposed to be the second windsurfing lesson err and we couldn’t go windsurfing because it was too windy because it was a bit, the weather wasn’t great, it was too windy so they didn’t, weren’t able to go out windsurfing so they said do you want to go sailing instead and Russell wasn’t there so I maybe think he was looking after Evie, maybe that was maybe the Wednesday morning was the day that she didn’t go to the kids club, which would make sense if it was the Tuesday night that…”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err you know he’d stayed with her, and err so I actually went out sailing with, I can’t remember his name, but somebody else that we’d, who was also doing the windsurfing classes with. I can’t, I think Russell had hurt his wrist, he’d done something, kayaking or sailing the day before, so he wasn’t bothered about going because I know, I think the Portuguese found it really hard to understand that a bloke would stay with a sick kid rather than me but err I think there was a reason he didn’t want to go sailing plus he’s a Doctor and he’s a lot better with sick than I am, which is totally honest, you know it’s totally honest so, err you know and I think in a way the holiday was a bit of my break as much as his break because I was looking after the kids all the while so.”

4078    “And also Russell was out at work and then the opportunity to spend time with the children on holiday.”
Reply    “No exactly, yeah.”

4078    “You were always with them and had…”
Reply    “And I had the opportunity to do something different so, and I think that was a sticking point when they interviewed me before, it was you know why didn’t I stay with Evie all the time that she was you know, she was sick, and I think that was, as you say for those reasons. One, he’s good with sick, and two it was my chance to have a break from the, from the children.”

4078    “Yeah, well it worked well for both of you anyway.”
Reply    “Yeah, so yeah.”

4078    “So you’d gone sailing.”
Reply    “But there’s nothing odd about it.”

4078    “No.”
Reply    “There’s nothing odd about the fact that he, he was staying with the children.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Err yeah so I went sailing but with somebody else, who I can’t remember his name but that is in my previous statement and Dave and Fi also, so they took one boat out and I took the other boat out with this other chap.”

4078    “Okay. You spent every morning, how long were the tennis lessons?”
Reply    “Err an hour.”

4078    “So you spent an hour every morning with Kate.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And Rachael. Was it Rachael?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah.”

4078    “Did you spend any time with Kate in any other activities specifically? Not just sort of chatting.”
Reply    “Err no not really, I think sometimes she was there in the afternoon if we were by the pool.”

4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “You know, but err but no, no other specific arranged activities.”

4078    “What about with Gerry?”
Reply    “No because he tended to do his separately, which is probably why I didn’t get to know him as well over the week as well because he was better at tennis than us so he had the ten thirty lesson which was the intermediates rather than the beginners.”

4078    “Right.”
Reply    “So you know we sort of tended to sort of pass and also they had a few extra lessons in the afternoon as well so, and they tended to do all tennis based activities, whereas the rest of us were sort of bitting and bobbing between you know beach activities as well as, as well as the tennis.”

4078    “So your contact with Kate was limited to your tennis lessons and then to sort of just sitting socially..”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “At the play area or in the Tapas bar, generally.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, around that sort of area.”

4078    “And with Gerry it was just limited to the social side.”
Reply    “It was mainly in the evening that we saw, well after the high tea for the kids, we called it high tea but you know, tea for the kids, and afterwards in the play area with the kids and then, and then in the restaurant in the evening.”

4078    “And on the Wednesday at the sailing, you mentioned there was somebody else present, you couldn’t remember their name.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Was that another guest?”
Reply    “That was, yeah that was another guest and his wife actually did the tennis lessons with us err and he’d done the first, I say, he was, the rest of us who did the windsurfing, it was Russ, me, Dave and Fi, and this other chap on the first day so I’d met him on the, would it be the Sunday or the mon, the Monday, I met him on the Monday. So Russell didn’t come down for the err the second windsurfing lesson which turned into a sailing lesson.”

4078    “Yeah, I’m with you there.”
Reply    “So, yeah, so we took a boat out and Dave and Fi took a boat out.”

4078    “Right. If his name comes back to you at some point just let me know.”
Reply    “Rob? I think it might have been Rob, but…”

4078    “Right.”
Reply    “But it’s definitely in my first statement, so, but I think he was called Rob.”

4078    “Okay. And that was all during the morning was it, the same?”
Reply    “That was all in the morning yeah.”

4078    “And then come lunch time do you remember if you went to collect…”
Reply    “Russell would have gone to collect Ella because the sailing finished at half twelve so I think I, I know the first day when we had the wind surfing it was quite a rush to pick them both up so I’m guessing if he wasn’t doing the sailing he would have picked up Ella.”

4078    “Okay. And can you remember what happened then for the rest of the day from your point of view?”
Reply    “No. Err the Wednesday, err again I think it would have just been a, Evie would have had a sleep and just round the pool or in the, each other apartments, until, until high tea but I think Ella, and Ella would have, Ella went to err, Ella went to the err the kids club. Actually that morning was the morning Ella and Madeleine had the tennis lesson I think on the Wednesday. You’ve got the picture of…”

4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err so after the, would it be the Wednesday, after our tennis lesson they all came down so we did stay and watch them for a bit, so that makes me wonder if it was actually the sailing that day. No, yeah because the sailing started, sorry, the sailing started at half eleven so between half ten and half eleven that day we would have stood and, we stood and watched, I stood with Kate and probably Rachael we watched them having their, the kids having their tennis lesson. And I think Russell was there, yeah Russell was there with Evie then so yeah I think Russell had probably spent the morning with Evie and then be watching us play tennis and we watched Ella.”

4078    “So that was definitely the morning you think (inaudible) left to go to kids club?”
Reply    “I think that, as much as I can remember I’m fairly sure that was, and that’s the morning when we had the conversation, which I think is in some of our statements but one of the other parents was there videoing them having a tennis lesson and at that point we were sort of saying it’s so ridiculous that you’re not allowed to, you know, people look at you funny if you’re doing this now, blah, blah, and it was almost like sort of afterwards, you know, we were all going oh yeah it’s ridiculous you have to worry about this sort of thing and you can’t take pictures of your own children, blah, blah, blah.”

4078    “Mm, so there was Rachael, Kate, you, Russell.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Gerry?”
Reply    “Err he would have probably, I think he’d started his tennis lesson on the other court so they were using one court for the err for the kids and the other court for the intermediate tennis people.”

4078    “And was Matthew around?”
Reply    “No he tended to do more, he’s a keen sailor so he tended to do more of the beach, beach activities so don’t think he was, I don’t think he was there then.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “But I, that again is, I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think he was.”

4078    “And what about David and Fiona? I know you went sailing with them later on.”
Reply    “Yeah, err I don’t think they were, I can’t say for sure but I don’t think they were. I can remember, I can remember specifically Kate being there and, and Rachael and Russell, but no I can’t remember if anybody else was there. I don’t think they were. There was other parents there, they were, there was other people we’d had our tennis lesson with and their children were actually having the tennis lesson as well so they were watching.”

4078    “And do you remember whether it was a good day or bad day weather wise that point?”
Reply    “Well if it was the day I went sailing it was quite, really windy, so I don’t think it was a particularly fantastic day.”

4078    “Okay, so that takes us up until lunch time on the Wednesday then.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Do you remember if you went to David and Fiona’s, was it every day you went there, or?”
Reply    “Err I think, it was every day except I think on the Thursday we actually ate in, Matt and Rachael came to our apartment, it was just us and Matt and Rachael. I can’t remember why we didn’t go up to Dave and Fi’s but I don’t know whether one of their kids had gone to bed already or something but I think every day up to that point we had eaten in their apartment, but on the Thursday it was just Matt and Rachael came, came, came to ours.”

4078    “Okay. So on the Wednesday then you’re likely to have been at David and Fiona’s?”
Reply    “I think so. I’m not sure but I think so.”

4078    “Right. Do you remember what happened in the afternoon on the Wednesday?”
Reply    “Err no, the afternoons are harder in a way because there was no set activities to jog, jog my memory, but err no I mean Russell tended to go and do something like go on the kayak or something, I imagined if he’d been looking after Evie in the morning he might have gone and gone on the kayak for an hour or something but I can’t say for sure. But I think Evie just had her sleep and we’d have gone, and then gone down to the, gone down to the pool bit again.”

4078    “I’m conscious that we’ve talking for quite a while now without any interruptions.”
Reply    “I know.”

4078    “Which is marvellous. It’s twenty past eleven, so we’ve been doing sort of a good forty, forty five minutes. How are you?”
Reply    “I’m fine yeah, no I prefer to keep going to be honest.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “If that’s okay?”

4078    “That’s fine.”
Reply    “If that’s okay with you for now.”

4078    “I just don’t want it to get to the point where you know you’re just…”
Reply    “No.”

4078    “You’re so bored by the process.”
Reply    “No, no.”

4078    “Right okay, so Wednesday you’ve done lunch, you’re not a hundred percent certain what you did in the afternoon.”
Reply    “Yeah, no.”

4078    “And baring in mind this was like the last normal meal if you like.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “At the Tapas bar, what can you remember about that?”
Reply    “Well I’d say out of all the nights this was the one we stayed the latest the other nights we’d been probably you know going quite err early and out of all the nights this was probably the one where we did have more to drink than the other nights. I mean not, not fourteen bottles or whatever they said but that night we probably had, did have, it was probably the longer night that we stayed in the Tapas bar.”

4078    “Was Russell there?”
Reply    “Russell was definitely there so yeah I think it was…”

4078    “It must have been the Tuesday then.”
Reply    “I think it was definitely the Tuesday that he was, he wasn’t there.”

4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Err but Rachael wasn’t there that night because she’d got the bug that Matt had had earlier in the week so she, she wasn’t there.”

4078    “Right.”
Reply    “On the Wednesday night.”

4078    “And what time do you think you stayed there until that night?”
Reply    “I think it was midnight that night, it was quite, it was actually quite late because after we’d finished the meal we actually went into the bar area just for a, for one, you know, for a night cap. So that was, I think it, I don’t know whether it was quite as late as midnight but it was definitely much later than any of the other nights we’d been there.”

4078    “And how were the checks going with the children by that stage? Because by then it would be like the fourth night you’d been to the Tapas. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, yeah the fourth.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “So how had things developed by then?”
Reply    “I’d say, I mean they were still as regular through the meal, that, the point where we were in the bar at the end was probably the longest, that was probably about forty minutes and I’d probably say during that forty minutes probably, I don’t know, we didn’t go back to check so that was probably the longest that the check hadn’t been, hadn’t been done you know. Err because I don’t, you know, I mean well one of us I don’t think went back while we were in the bar area but we were probably in there for about, it was probably about forty minutes.”

4078    “But from the early part of the evening there’d been fairly regular checks.”
Reply    “Yeah, the same as, yeah the same as, the same as before. I can’t remember who checked when or, you know, I can’t remember when, you know whether it was me or Russell or whoever went back at that point. I don’t, I’m trying to think if by that point we were checking on each other’s…”

4078    “That was part of my next question.”
Reply    “Oh right. Err I mean I didn’t personally, I think, I mean I’ll tell you when I went back I just tended to check on bars and I listened at Matt and Rachael’s, you know at some point we listened at Matt and Rachael’s window and down there but err no I can’t remember, but by that stage I think we were listening but we didn’t, I don’t know whether people actually went in to, to be honest nobody, if we hadn’t gone nobody could have gone in to ours because they’d need the key so when people did check ours they did, they did just listen, so.”

4078    “When we come on to talk about the Thursday evening later on I’m going to try and get you to sort of go back in a lot more detail that we’ve been talking about so far.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “I was tempted then to ask you about the route back to your apartment but we’ll leave that for perhaps after lunch when you’ve had a little bit of a break and stuff.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “But what I’d like to do for now is just to get up to the point where we’ve done sort of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday already.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “And we’re ready to start on with the going into a little bit more detail on the Thursday.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “So I’m assuming from what I’ve read and from what you’ve said or haven’t said so far that there was never any problem amongst the group.”
Reply    “No, never.”

4078    “And nothing remarkable at all really up until…”
Reply    “No it was actually on the Thursday night I remember when we all got to the table we were sort of saying how well the holiday had been going you know and how, because you know when you do go on holiday with a group of people there’s often, not friction, but you can often get a bit of, you know because somebody’s wanting to do one thing and somebody’s…”

4078    “Yeah well we’re all different aren’t we, so.”
Reply    “But because of the nature of the holiday we were sort of doing our own thing in the day anyway and then just getting together in the evening so, no that was working, well I say, it was one of those ironic things now but you know I can remember actually sitting there saying oh isn’t this working well, it’s you know, and from Russell and ours, our point of view, because we so nearly didn’t go, we were thinking oh we’re really glad we came because Ella had been fine, she was you know she was loving it and err giving her distraction from the horrible week she’d had before, so yeah it we were sort of like oh we’re so glad, you know, we’re so glad we came, you know, it was the right thing, you know it was right to come sort of thing.”

4078    “In relation to the activities that you sort of signed up for and that were available to you, did you have to take equipment with you or was it available to hire?”
Reply    “No, it’s all to hire.”

4078    “So from your point of view, you and Russell didn’t take tennis equipment.”
Reply    “No, no.”

4078    “Or sailing equipment.”
Reply    “No.”

4078    “Whatever you’d need for that.”
Reply    “No, no.”

4078    “And what about the other couples?”
Reply    “Err I don’t know whether Kate and Gerry took, they might have taken racquets because I think they’d always, they’d always been planning to do the tennis, especially Gerry. Gerry had always been planning to do the tennis so I don’t know whether he took a tennis racquet or not, but no, I mean we didn’t, I hadn’t really thought about doing the tennis until we got there and thought, so we did a taster session then thought ah yeah I’ll do that. But I’m not that keen on water.”

4078    “So you’d turn up and just take the equipment that was available to you?”
Reply    “Yeah take what was available, yeah.”
4078    “Would that have been the same for Rachael as well, as far as you know?”
Reply    “Err, again she’s played more tennis than me but I don’t think she took her equipment, it was just what was there.”

4078    “But you think that Kate might have come with a racquet?”
Reply    “I don’t know about Kate, I think Gerry might have done but again, I don’t know, I’m just surmising just because they’re keener tennis players.”

4078    “Right. You can’t picture seeing him or her at any stage with a full bag of tennis equipment or?”
Reply    “No.”

4078    “Okay. And so we’ve come to the Wednesday night and you’ve had a few more drinks than you had done previously and you had a later night. Was Evie all better by that stage?”
Reply    “Yeah she’d been running around in the day so, we did umm and ahh about you know, I think we did think oh shall I stay with her but she’d been so happy all day we just thought I think she’s fine and we were doing the checks so yeah we didn’t, we thought you know we thought she was fine, as I say she’d been fine since she’d had the one which was more from the milk, it was the UHT milk that didn’t agree with her.”

4078    “And from the comments amongst the group, how were the other children doing?”
Reply    “Yeah fine, yeah they were, they were tired. I think the Wednesday night, there was one night when Ella had a complete meltdown and sort of, she’s not sort of a tantrumy child but she was so tired she just sort of crashed and screamed during bath time. I think that might have been, I’m not sure if that was the Wednesday, it could have been the Wednesday but she just had a complete, you know how the kids do when they’re tired, complete meltdown and there’s screaming and they’re so tired it was quite hard to settle her but then she just, she just crashed, but there was, I think that was the Wednesday night that she, I mean by, when we were playing in the play area she sort of lay on the floor and started, which she doesn’t do at all so we knew she was, we knew she was shattered at that point. But I think that, I think that was the Wednesday.”

4078    “Okay. There seems to be nothing left then but to move on to the Thursday.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “We have been going a long time and I think I’m going to enforce a break on you.”
Reply    “Okay that’s fine.”

4078    “Because that’s easier then when we come to talk about.”
Reply    “Yeah it’s a good time, yeah.”

4078    “Rather than stopping and starting.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “So it’s now eleven twenty nine and we’ll stop this interview, unless there’s anything you want to say before we move on to the Thursday?”
Reply    “Err no I don’t think so.”

4078    “Well we can always revisit it if you want.”
Reply    “Yeah.”

The interview ceased at 1129 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.

Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview III

L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y

Form MG15(T)

RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No SVF/106A

Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 26

Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby Signature of Interviewing

Date of Interview: 08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit

Time Commenced: 1155 hours

Time Concluded: 1240 hours Duration of Interview: 45 minutes

Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos: SVF/106

Other Persons Present None

4078    “It is eleven fifty-five and fifty-nine, so it is nearly eleven fifty-six, which it is now.  We are in an interview room at the Force Headquarters of Leicestershire Police and I am DC FERGUSON from the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit.  And you are?”

Reply    “Jane Michelle TANNER”.

4078    “Thank you Jane.  We have done two discs already on interviews and we have been working our way through part of what has been a very significant holiday”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “We have gone from the Saturday when you arrived up until the Wednesday night so far.  And you have just said that you have been racking your brains to see if there is anything else that you have thought of that we have missed during that time?”

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “And you said you can’t think of anything else at the moment?”

Reply    “No, I can’t think of anything at the moment”.

4078    “There was just two things I have thought to ask before we move on to the Thursday”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Madeleine, how much of Madeleine did you see?”
 Reply    “Not that much really because only really because she didn’t come to breakfast, so we saw the other children at breakfast and their lunch, but because they tended to have breakfast and lunch separately, the only time I really saw her was at, erm, after high tea when we were playing in the play area, was the main times that I probably saw her during the week”.

4078    “And how would you describe Madeleine?”
 Reply    “Very, she was very lively, a very lively, happy, a happy little girl really.  Because, probably a bit of, we were almost a bit worried how Ella and Madeleine would get on, because Ella’s quite shy and sensitive and Madeleine’s very, erm, I don’t know whether you can call a child vivacious, but, you know, sort of very, erm, outgoing and.  But, I mean, they did, they got on and they had a whale of a time.  But, yeah, very, very lively, chatty, a chatty little girl.  I mean, to be honest, I know Madeleine probably less well than I know Kate and Gerry, because often, with Kate and Gerry, we saw them, it was like at fortieth birthday parties and that sort of thing.  So, Madeleine herself, I wouldn’t say as, I didn’t know her as a little girl, whereas, you know, the other children, Millie and the other ones, you know, I saw very regularly”.

4078    “So your impressions of Madeleine is that she is confident, happy?”
 Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “Intelligent?”
 Reply    “Yeah, very, yeah, you know, very”.

4078    “And is there anything about her that would make her stand out from the rest of the children in that group?”
 Reply    “I think just the fact she is very outgoing, you know.  As I say, Ella, in her nature, is a bit more, you know, quiet and, erm, a bit more probably reserved.  Well, again, I don’t know whether you’d call a child reserved, but more, you know, not quite so”.

4078    “Hangs back and sees what is going on?”
 Reply    “Yeah, she’s, yeah, whereas, I think Madeleine would be, she would always be in the centre, anything that was going on she would be, I don’t mean to say the ring-leader, but she would be at the centre of it, so”.

4078    “I don’t want to put words in your mouth and I don’t want to ask inappropriate questions either”.
 Reply    “No, just ask”.

4078    “How you described Madeleine, up to what point was she sort of the leader, if you like, was she verging on the, because some children can be downright annoying”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.
 4078    “When they’re over confident?”
 Reply    “No, again, I think this is what I was almost wondering, whether, with Ella being sort of the stand-back type, whether, but, no, she wasn’t like that at all, she was just”.

4078    “In a nice way?”
 Reply    “Just happy.  In a nice way, yeah.  No, she wasn’t, erm, she wasn’t a brat, no, I mean, that’s you could describe, she wasn’t, no, bratty or sort of, I can’t remember the word I’m trying to look for, precocious”.

4078    “Yeah”.
 Reply    “No, she was just very, and she was obviously, you know, they were enjoying themselves, they were running around screaming, you know, sort of chasing them round the play area, you know.  That’s my main memory of Madeleine from the holiday, is in the play area, you know, we were sort of chasing them around and, you know, just being, just running around, quite happy”.

4078    “Just fun?”
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.

4078    “Okay.  And you also mentioned that you went for a run.  Was that the only one that you did, I know I asked, but I can’t”.
 Reply    “Yes, I think it was, yeah”.

4078    “And what about the rest of the group, were you aware of them going running?”
 Reply    “Erm, I know Kate and Gerry, I think they did a run together on the day that I did a run, because I think I saw them and I thought ‘Oh God, I better go’, because I was supposed to be training and I thought ‘Oh I’d better’, it sort of guilted me into going for a run anyway, so.  And Fiona often went for, I think she did a few, she did a few runs.  Erm, and Matt and Rachael do run, so I would imagine they probably did.  Me and Russell are the lazy ones really out of all, the rest of them are all very sporty”.

4078    “None of you sound lazy”.
 Reply    “But, no, they”.

4078    “I am worn out just thinking about it”.
 Reply    “But, no, they tended to, so I would imagine, I think Matt would have definitely have gone.  I can remember Matt going for a run actually.  I think Russell was probably the only one that didn’t at all probably during the holiday and Fi’s mum”.

4078    “Oh I know, that is Dianne, isn’t it?”
 Reply    “Dianne, yeah”.

4078    “Yeah, I think I will be speaking to Dianne at the end of the week”.
 Reply    “Oh right, yeah”.

4078    “Okay.  Well I am ready to move onto Thursday, are you?”
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.

4078    “Let’s just go through what you can remember then”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Also there is going to be a lot of questions arising”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And things”.
 Reply    “That’s fine, yeah”,

4078    “So rather than me asking and prompting you through the day, you just tell me straight off, if you can try and, as much as you can”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Try and get yourself back there and go through the motions that you went through on that Thursday”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And see how you get on”.
 Reply    “Okay.  Erm, that morning I didn’t go for breakfast at Millennium, I think we’d been a bit later the night before, so we just thought, ‘Oh let’s just’, we just stayed in bed a bit longer.  We didn’t, so I didn’t, like I say, I didn’t go, I just went straight to the, straight to the tennis lesson.  So I think Russell took, Russell took Ella and Evie up to the Millennium with, erm, I think he went with Matt.  Again, I’m not sure, but I think he went up with Matt and Grace up to the Millennium, and Rachael and I went to play tennis.  So I think that was the only morning I probably didn’t go, didn’t go for breakfast, was the Thursday.  So then we had our, we had the tennis lesson as normal in the morning.  I think Evie, no, Evie definitely didn’t go to the Kids Club that morning.  So I think Russell went for breakfast, took the kids for breakfast at the MILLENIUM, then walked down, dropped Ella off at her Kids Club and then brought Evie back to watch us playing tennis, no.  No, I got that wrong, sorry, doh, I got it wrong actually.  So that, you know how I said on the Wednesday we had been watching them having their tennis lesson and we spoke to the chap, it wasn’t the person that said ‘Isn’t it bad that you video’.  Ella, so, hang on, let’s go back.  I’m just getting myself all.  On the Wednesday me, Rachael and Kate watched Ella and Madeleine having their tennis lesson”.

4078    “Yeah”.
 Reply    “But then on the Thursday another group of children came down for their tennis lesson and that’s when Russell and this other person was there with the video camera.  Because just going backwards, I’m thinking Russell dropped Ella off and then came to watch us finishing our tennis lesson with Evie, because Evie didn’t go to the Kids Club.  And after our tennis lesson that day another group of children came down for their tennis lesson, so”.

4078    “Not Madeleine?”
 Reply    “Not Madeleine and Ella, no, another group.  And we sort of just watched them starting and that’s when the conversation with this other person with the video camera, because he was taking pictures of his daughter”.

4078    “Are you sure that it was his daughter?”
 Reply    “I’m absolutely.  It definitely was his daughter, yes, yeah”.

4078    “So it was not sort of a stranger we have got with a video camera?”
 Reply    “No, no, I think he was actually on our flight out, so we had actually spoken to him during the week.  So, no, he was definitely, he was definitely a guest who had his daughter there.  But, yeah, I got that wrong.  And that makes more sense because I was thinking the day before I would have gone off to play, to do the same, whereas that day, after the tennis lesson, I didn’t do any other activity, for want of, yeah, so.  Does that make sense?”

4078    “Yeah, it does, but just to clarify though, that on the Wednesday, when you saw Madeleine and Ella had her tennis lesson, do you remember if Russell was there then?”
 Reply    “I don’t remember if he was there, but I don’t’ think so”.

4078    “But on the Thursday he was there”.
 Reply    “He was definitely there”.

4078    “Watching Madeleine and Ella”.
 Reply    “It was the other, it was other part of the, it was the same age group but it was the other half of the group that were having their tennis lesson”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “No, I thought when I was saying that, that it didn’t sound quite fright, so, yeah”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “So, yeah, so we had, erm, the tennis lesson finished, so I’ve had that conversation about ‘Isn’t it awful you can’t watch your daughter’, blah, blah, blah, ‘You can’t film your own daughter’.  And then we walked down to the beach with Evie.  So I think, erm, I think we walked down, no, Dave and Fi were already down there and, no, we met.  Hang on.  Sorry, I’m just trying to think.

4078    “There is no problem, just in your own time.  Was this your first beach visit by the way?”
 Reply    “It was with the children, yeah, with Evie, yeah.  And, again, that sounds odd, but we’d just moved to Devon, so I think we’d been to the beach quite a lot, so normally when, if we’d gone on holiday we’d have been like straight to the beach, but because we’d, because we were by the beach”.

4078    “Not so much”.
 Reply    “Yeah, I don’t think we’d sort of, we hadn’t sort of thought of going before.  Erm, you know, walking down to the beach, so Russell, me and Evie walked down to the beach.  I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) but I don’t know where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us.  Erm, we, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think they’d had their second sailing lesson, erm, which Russell should have gone to but he didn’t because of looking after Evie, because I’d paid for the tennis lesson but he hadn’t paid for the sailing lesson we thought I’d do the tennis lesson”.

4078    “Because it was paid?”
 Reply    “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’.  So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point.  And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”.

4078    “What was the weather like at that time when you remember seeing Madeleine on the beach then?”
 Reply    “Erm, I think that day was a bit nicer actually.  I think, I’m trying to, I’ve got pictures of Ella, of Evie, that’s about the first day I took pictures actually, and I’ve got pictures of Evie and I’m trying to remember what she was wearing.  It was a tee-shirt, so I don’t think it was, it wasn’t as, I think it was actually getting a bit nicer, it wasn’t as cold.  No, yeah, because the Thursday was actually probably one of the first nice days, which is why I think we had gone later in the day, we took all the kids down to the beach because it was actually nicer weather.  So, yeah, the Thursday was probably the first day I think the sun had more come out in the day”.

4078    “When you were there with Evie and you had seen Madeleine and Ella sort of getting ready to go back to the Kids Club, were there many other people around?”
 Reply    “Erm, not many, erm, phew, you know, I mean, I can remember sitting in a big space, you know, you weren’t like jammed in, there was a big space before any of the others.  And, again, I’ve racked my brains to think if I could if there was anybody there that was, and I can’t think of any, noticing anybody, noticing anybody odd at that point.  Erm, there was mainly just, as I say, there was the kids there and there was the people that run the activities on the beach.  But, erm, you know, there were other people but nothing, you know, nobody, nobody that stood out completely”.

4078    “Okay.  Go on then”.
 Reply    “Yeah, so erm, so, yeah, Russ took the, took the kayak out for a bit and then came back and then we just sat, I think we just stayed then on the beach and waited to, because Ella, and then waited ‘til sort of half twelve to go and pick Ella up for lunch, erm.  So we walked back via the Kids Club and then back up for lunch.  And I think that day was the day we had lunch in our apartment with just Matt and Rachael and not Dave and Fi.  I think, I think because they’d done the sailing early, I think they might have picked up their kids a bit earlier and given them lunch, you know, beforehand.  I can’t remember why we didn’t, but it was just the four of us and the kids there that day.  Erm, so, yeah, we just went back and had lunch in the apartment.  And then Grace and Evie, took them to have a, have a nap.  And I think probably before Ella went back, Rachael and I just went to have a knock on the tennis court.  So, I mean, I don’t know what time that would have been, probably, I’m trying to think what time the Kids Club started in the afternoon, I think it’s half two, but I mean, you’ll know that, I think it was half two, so probably about half one, erm, Rachael and I just went down to, you know, the court was free so we thought ‘Oh we’ll go and have a bit of a knock’ at that point.  Erm, so Russ took back, took Ella back to the Kids Club and Matt listened for Evie while Russ took Ella.  Matt, Matt sort of was listening for Evie and Grace while Russ took Ella back to the, back to the Kids Club”.

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “Erm, and I think we played ‘til about, phew, half two, because I think, I’m not sure if this is going to be another question that you are going to ask, but I think that was the last time that I saw Madeleine, because Kate and Gerry brought the kids, all the kids down to the play area to, they would have their lunch before they took them back to the Kids Club, and I think that was about two, quarter past two’ish, and I can remember Madeleine shouting things to us on the tennis court, you know, and I can remember Gerry sort of going ‘Oh good shot’ or whatever.  And I think that would have been the last time that I personally, you know, I personally saw Madeleine.  Erm, and I think they then left, I say times, I’m not sure, but I know, I think it was probably, the Kids Club had already gone back in, because I could hear, the Kids Club was right by the court, so, and I can remember thinking ‘Oh they’ve not gone straight back in’.  Then they took the twins up to the Kids Club and I presume Madeleine back to the, to the other one, because then Kate and Gerry, I think we saw them, I can’t remember for exactly, but I think we saw them when we come back, because they’d booked a, erm, a private tennis lesson, just the two of them, that afternoon, and I think, I don’t, I can’t remember whether we saw them coming back before me and Rachael finished or whether we saw them doing that when we then went down to the beach, but I remember seeing Kate and Gerry coming back to have their, have their private tennis lesson.  So anyway me and Rachael probably knocked up for about any hour maybe or probably a bit less than an hour, then went back and then, then Matt and Russ, when we got back, Matt and Russ went down to the beach and I think they took a boat out, erm, Matt fell off the boat and nearly lost Matt off the side of the boat and we thought that would be the drama of the day, but.  So, yeah, then they went down to their and then we’d arranged to actually take all the kids down to the beach with Dave and Fi and Dianne that afternoon, so then when Evie and Grace woke up, we all well followed and all went down to the beach as a group, but not with, but Kate and Gerry didn’t come then because they’d booked this private, you know, this private lesson”.

4078    “So it was Fiona and David?”
 Reply    “Yeah”

4078    “And Dianne?”
 Reply    “Dianne, yeah”.

4078    “And Grace?”
 Reply    “Grace”.

4078    “Sorry, Lily, Scarlet”.
 Reply    “Lily, Scarlet and Grace”.
 4078    “It’s like a test for me trying to remember”.
 Reply    I know it is, yeah”.

4078    “I am missing a couple.  Rachael and Matthew, they were there too?”
 Reply    “Rachael was.  Matt, Matthew had gone down with Russell, so they were already on the beach, they were, as I say, they were trying to drown each other on the boat at this point, so they were already down there”.

4078    “So everybody was there apart from Gerry and Kate and Madeleine and the twins?”
 Reply    “And Ella.  Ella was still in the Kids Club at this point as well”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “Like I say, yeah, everybody apart from those”.

4078    “What time of day was that by that point, roughly?”
 Reply    “Erm, I think it was about three’ish, three thirty, probably by, it might even have been later by the time we’d got ourselves, I’d say three thirty-four”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “By the time we’d got everybody, trying to get Dave and Fi anywhere is like trying to organise an Army, so I imagined it probably went a bit”.

4078    “Why is that?”
 Reply    “Erm, they’re just always late”.

4078    “Whose fault is it?”
 Reply    “They’re just always late and faffing, I think Dave’s a faffer so it’s normally, so, yeah, I think, erm, it was probably three thirty, four”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “Ish.  Erm, so, yeah, we went down to the beach and we were probably on the beach for an hour.  Matt and Russ came out from their sailing and started telling us, you know, about their, how Matt had fallen off the side and he’d had to go back and get him, et cetera.  Erm, I think, actually, at this, I think Dave, sorry David, might have been down there as well, he might not have come down with us, he might have already been down there as well but he joined us.  I can’t, I think he was, yeah, I think he was out on the water as well, so he wouldn’t have walked down with us, we met him there as well”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “But”.

4078    “He was on the beach with you?”
 Reply    “He was on the beach, yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, we played with the kids for probably about an hour and a half on the beach.  And then Russell went to get, pick Ella up from the Kids Club and he brought her back down, back down to the beach”.

4078    “Was that the normal time that they finished?”
 Reply    “Erm, I think it was about five.  It would have been before, because they used to walk them up for tea, so because we were going to give them all tea on the beach we didn’t, we made sure it was before they left, but it would have probably have been about, just before five I think”.

4078    “And how long did it take you to go from the beach to the Kids Club?”
 Reply    “Erm, phew, five minutes”.

4078    “Not long at all?”
 Reply    “No, it was up a hill.  Yeah, probably four or five minutes”.

4078    “Okay.  Go on then.  So Russell goes back to fetch Ella?”
 Reply    “Yeah, and then I remember him coming back down, erm, to the beach.  I think she was on his shoulders.  I don’t know why I remember that, but I remember him”.

4078    “Well that is good, if you have got a mental image”.
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah, that’s what I’m thinking, yeah.  So, yeah, he came back down and I think we were still on the beach at that point, I don’t think we’d gone to the café, I think when he came back we were still on the beach.  And then we walked up to, I think it’s Café Paris, Parisio or something, it’s the café that’s on the front, and we just had, had some drinks there and gave the kids some tea, so we got them some tea, because obviously they weren’t having it in the,  the Kids, they didn’t have the provided tea that night.  Erm, I had an orange juice, I didn’t even have a beer, I remember that, because I thought ‘Oh shall I have a beer’ and I thought ‘Oh no, I’ll have an orange juice’.  I don’t know why I remember that either but”.

4078    “Obviously a conscious decision”.
 Reply    “It was a conscious, yeah.  I think normally I probably would have at that time of day thought ‘It’s time for a beer’.  But, no, I had an orange juice and we fed the kids and then they played in front of the, erm, tut, in front of the restaurant there was like a slide and swings and they were playing on there”.

4078    “Is that actually on the beach then?”
 Reply    “Yeah, more or less, yeah, it’s sort of right on the edge and then it goes onto the beach, so the swings are actually on the beach, a bit of it.  Erm, I’m trying to think what else, what we did when we were in the restaurant.  I can’t remember.  There was some lobsters in a, tut, a tank.  And the group Ella and Madeleine was in was called LOBSTER, so I can remember going, like lobsters”.

4078    “Right (inaudible)”.
 Reply    “A key piece, it’s a key piece of information there, sorry.  And then, I think, yeah, I gave the kids some food and they had an ice cream.  And then I think, it was every night, yeah, every night there was social tennis actually, so that’s probably what happened after tea on most nights, we’d go and do an hour of tennis and sort of mix and match between us all, so the kids would be playing in the, erm, the play area, and, you know, we’d sort of like, somebody will stay and play with the kids and then we’d swap in and out if it was.  But like they had, one night they had a ladies’ night, but Thursday night was actually the men’s night of tennis and I think somebody, basically made, tried to make ourselves as awkward as possible on this holiday, I think, because somebody had asked, because there weren’t many people there and most of the people playing tennis were in our group except a few others, they sort of said ‘Oh could it be just slightly’, it was either slightly earlier or slightly later, so I think it was actually, I think normally it started at half six but we’d asked ‘Could the social tennis start at six’, so that they then gave us time to get the kids into bed afterwards”.

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “Does that make sense?”

4078    “Yeah”.
 Reply    “Erm, so I can remember saying to Russell and Matt and everything, it was about quarter past six, I said ‘Oh you’ve got to go to the men’s night tennis because they’ve changed the times for us and now you’re not bloody going’, you know, that sort of, it was that sort of thing.  So I think at about quarter past six they, they all went up to, erm, to the men’s tennis”.

4078    “Had Kate and Gerry joined you at that time?”
 Reply    “No, they didn’t come down to the beach at all because they’d had their, erm, they’d had their private tennis lesson or whatever it was, so it was quite late in the day, so they hadn’t”.

4078    “You hadn’t seen them at all then, that afternoon?”
 Reply    “Only, I’d seen them about half, well about two, between two and half two”.

4078    “And the tennis?”
 Reply    “Yeah, and I saw them, as I say, I can’t remember whether it was then that they had their tennis lesson, so I can’t remember whether I saw them when me and Rachael went back to the room or whether it was when we took all the kids down to the beach, we saw them playing tennis, but we’d seen them then.  And also I saw, we saw Kate running when we were at the Café Parisio or whatever it was, Kate was running along, we saw Kate running along the beach, so she’d obviously gone for a run.  Actually I think that was before, I think that’s, yeah, that’s when we were still on the beach, so it was before we’d gone to the café that we saw Kate running”.

4078    “Right.  So it was before teatime?”
 Reply    “Before, yeah.  So it would have probably been before five, it would have been sort of, either before, definitely before half past five I would have said we’d seen her, yeah”.

4078    “And she was on her own?”
 Reply    “She was on her own, yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, the, sorry, Russell, Matt and Dave went up to, back up to the complex, for want of a better word, to play tennis, because we sort of said ‘Well’”.

4078    “You’ve got to?”
 Reply    “’You’ve got to because’.  I think Russell and I are probably more sort of laid back and just go with the flow a bit, but some of the people on the holiday were quite sort of ‘Oh we’ll ask, we’ll get this’, you know, a bit like booking the Tapas Restaurant every night, I don’t think it would ever have crossed Russell and my mind to try and get a block booking, but, erm, you know, I think they sort of”.

4078    “Once somebody has you feel obliged to go along with it?”
 Reply    “Well, I think, yeah, I mean, and we actually did have a conversation, it’s one of those ‘What ifs’ as well, I can remember on the morning of the, Thursday morning by the tennis, at the tennis, somebody in our tennis group had tried to book the Tapas and they couldn’t get in because it was already full.  And I can remember thinking at that point, and I just felt, you know, ‘Good’, because they were bloomin’ awkward by booking it out.  And they were sort of saying well it’s a bit ridiculous that they couldn’t have got in because they’d booked, they’d tried to book in, you know, they’d been there at nine o’clock to book in and they still couldn’t get in.  So, we did, at that point, I can remember having this conversation was ‘Oh shall we go somewhere different’, but it never happened, but.  And Kate was, I think Kate was there then, I can’t remember who else, but we did actually say ‘Oh shall we, shall we go somewhere different’.  And I think almost at that point we had considered it, but I think the problem was the kids were so tired after having such full days, I think it was more ‘Well it’s worked every other night’.  But I know definitely from my point of view I felt quite bad that we were taking this, you know, this block booking every night and it was affecting other people using it”.

4078    “What were the other options then for eating, was there a good option close by?”
 Reply    “No, it was just the Millennium, well in terms of ones that you wouldn’t have to pay extra for, it was the Millennium, which didn’t really start until, I think it was half seven or something, so, you know, by that stage it was, we could have, we could have gone there, so I think.  And our kids are probably more, I don’t know, (inaudible) our kids as they are growing up, but we tend to drag our kids with us more, you know, they have never really had a certain bedtime as such, I think”.

4078    “So they adapted more?”
 Reply    “They adapt, they’re more adaptable, yeah.  But I think, I normally would have pushed that, but I think because Ella had had the complete, the night before, because she was so tired, so completely lost the plot, we thought ‘She’s tired, lets just, you know, stick with it as it is really’”.

4078    “And the holiday was all inclusive?”
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Does the Tapas come under that bracket?”
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s did, yeah”.

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “Erm, so what was I saying, sorry, I got side tracked there.  I was, so we’d come back for the tennis, yeah, we’d sent them back to the tennis”.

4078    “That’s right”.
 Reply    “Because we thought ‘It’s not fair that they’ve’”.

4078    “That’s where we were, yeah”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “I’m struggling to remember as well”.
 Reply    “Yeah, it’s not fair that they’ve changed the time for us and then they don’t go.  So they went back up at that point and then we followed up probably about quarter of an hour later with all the kids and we went to the play area by the tennis courts and had a, you know, we probably stayed there for about half an hour or so.  At that point, I’m not, I can’t say how long that was, about half an hour”.
 4078    “Were Madeleine and the”.
 Reply    “No, they weren’t there.  No, they weren’t there.  Yeah, they’d most, but Gerry was there, he was playing, he was playing tennis”.

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “Yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, we stayed there for a bit and then took the children back and got them, you know, bathed and blah blah and got them ready for bed, but that was probably, by that stage that was probably, erm, half seven’ish probably I’d say, by the time we, we went back, if not maybe even a bit later, I’m not sure, but around then, around the seven o’clock mark”.

4078    “Nothing different to the rest of the holiday really?”
 Reply    “No, no, no, just, erm, yeah, it was the same, we’d done that almost every night.  I think, I think both of them had a bit of a screaming fit that night, because I can remember them being quite bad when they got into bed, because I think they just lost it.  And also I think Ella was, because Russell was still playing tennis she was like ‘Where’s daddy, why is he not putting me to bed’, so there was a bit of that as well.  But I can remember them being, being a bit, err, it was tiredness, they were doing so much in the day that they did kick off a bit when we got back to the room, but.  Erm, so, yeah, I think Russell came back, I think they were supposed to finish at half seven and it was around, I think they had a bit of, but it went on a bit longer, so they were probably back about, he was probably back about quarter to eight.  And then put the, and they weren’t, Ella and Evie weren’t in bed at that point, erm, I think they, it was probably about quarter past eight by the time we actually put them, them in, them into bed.  And then I went down to the restaurant just after half eight.  There’s another, another thing that I was feeling bad about was, erm, we’d got this block booking for half past eight, but because Dave and Fi are so rubbish at getting anywhere, again they’re always late, it was edging back every night, so we were sort of getting to the place of sort of quarter to nine, nine o’clock, when everybody was getting there and, as I said earlier, a lot of people were going earlier, you know, earlier in the evening, so I was very conscious we were sort of keeping all the waiters there late, you know, not later, but later than they probably would, would normally be there, so.  So I think by that stage we knew what the menu was, so I’d got Russell’s order but he stayed, because the children had only been asleep for quarter of an hour, he stayed back in the room for a bit longer, just to check that they were definitely asleep before, before he came, came to join, you know, everybody else”.

4078    “Yeah”.
 Reply    “So, yeah, I think I went down about, it was just after half eight, so probably twenty-five to nine’ish, I’m not, but it was, it was quite close to half eight because, as I say, I was very conscious that we were all being so late all the time and it was getting later and later”.

4078    “And who was there when you got there?”
 Reply    “Kate and Gerry were there already and they were talking to, I don’t know their names, but they were talking to the two people that Gerry played tennis with in, erm, in his group, who were sitting in the restaurant”.

4078    “I haven’t seen a photograph of the inside of the Tapas Bar”.
 Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “Could you just briefly describe as you go, is there only one door, is it a kind of open?”
 Reply    “It’s open more or less, yeah, so”.

4078    “Just give me some idea of what it looks like?”
 Reply    “Yeah, so as you walk, so you walk in past, yeah, it is past the pool, and there was sort of a tarpaulin bit, I’m going to go this way because I can’t”.
 4078    “Visualise it, left and right (inaudible)”.
 Reply    “Yeah, so the tarpaulin is here and you’ve got the tables here and then it’s all open from that side, so, and the big table for us in sort of the middle, they’d put a table there and then there was some more tables down the side by the tarpaulin.  And I think our table had moved slightly that way because, as I said, the other nights I’d had the monitor behind me on sort of the ledge where the tarpaulin was, I think there was actually a table between us and the tarpaulin this night, so I think we’d actually gone a bit.  I can’t remember, I was talking to Russell about this last night and he couldn’t remember, but I’m sure, purely because of the fact I’d been putting the monitor there, so it was actually, it was only that much nearer, but that made the difference, so, erm”.

4078    “Was it a table specifically for a large group or had they sort of mackled together a group of tables?”
 Reply    “Erm, I think they’d put some together, but it was round, it was just one big round, a big round one. I can’t remember to be honest.  But, I mean, I think the first time we’d gone there we’d had the thing we’d had with the Millennium the first night, you know, we was all trying to put tables together, so now they knew we were coming we had a, we had the, erm, you know, the big table there waiting”.

4078    “You say when you got there Gerry and Kate were talking to another couple from tennis?”
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Do you remember where they were sitting?”
 Reply    “The other couple?”

4078    “All four of them”.
 Reply    “Erm, Kate and Gerry were standing up, so they hadn’t sat down at this point, they were standing.  So this was say our table, this other couple were here, I think, and Kate and Gerry were standing here, talking to them”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “Erm, so, yeah, I’d got down and I think then, soon after I’d got down we sat down at our table, not our table, but, yeah, sat down on our table.  Then, I’m trying to think who came next.  I think next it was, erm, Matt and Rachael I think came next, yeah, Matt and Rachael came down next together, the two of them, probably a few minutes after, after me, I don’t think it was that long, that long after me.  And then Russell came down, probably about quarter to’ish, I think it was, probably sort of five or ten minutes after, after me.  And then it was getting quite late again and Dave, Fi and Dianne were nowhere to be seen, so Matt actually, I think it had got to the point when it was like ‘Oh Matt go and’ and Matt said he’d go back and chivvy them along.  I think Fi had actually been for a run which is why it had taken, why she was, they were taking longer.  Erm, yeah, so Matt went back, erm, but he actually met them coming down.  But I think because he was up he thought while he was up he’d go and have a listen just to check, you know, there was no noise from Grace.  I think he must have actually been a bit longer, I think we’d actually been there for about quarter of an hour before Dave and Fi, you know, all of us had been there for about ten or fifteen minutes before they actually appeared, so”.

4078    “So you got there then, Rachael and Matt have arrived?”
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Then Russell came?”
 Reply    “Then Russell”.

4078    “And then after Matt had gone up to chase David and Fiona they arrived anyway?”
 Reply    “Yeah, they all arrived, yeah”.

4078    “Can you picture who was sitting where on the table?”
 Reply    “Erm, I was sitting next to Kate on one side and I think it was Rachael, I think it was Rachael the other side.  Erm, yeah, I think it was, erm, so it was Kate, me, Rachael and then I think, erm, I’m trying to think where everybody else was.  Erm, I think Dianne was next to Rachael, here.  I really can’t, I can’t really, I can’t picture exactly, but I know, I know I was next to Kate, that’s in my head, and I think it was Rachael the other side, the other side of me.  And I think Russell might have been the other side of Kate or Matt was next”.

4078    “Who or what were you facing?”
 Reply    “I was facing the, erm, I was almost facing the bar area, so I was sort of, yeah, I had my, to where the apartments was, I was sort of perpendicular”.

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “Is that the right word, perpendicular?”

4078    “Yeah”.
 Reply    “At right angles to it”.

4078    “Yeah, it is really difficult when you haven’t been somewhere”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “To picture it.  But unfortunately they won’t pay for me to go on holiday, so I’ll just have to try and imagine what I can”.
 Reply    “Do you want me to show you?”

4078    “Yes please”.
 Reply    “Erm, yeah, so I was sort of, if you think of that as, you see that bit, if you think of that as a round table, I was sort of here”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “And I think Kate was that side and Rachael that side I think”.

4078    “So you were sort of further away from your partners, would that be right?”
 Reply    “Erm”.

4078    “Can I give you a piece of paper?”
 Reply    “Yeah, erm, so here’s the”.

4078    “The only relevance is it is so that we can see where you are coming from when you describe the evening”.
 Reply    “Yeah, erm, so there’s the apartments”.

4078    “Yeah”.
 Reply    “Here’s the road.  It’s not to scale at all.  So as you come in you’ve got the pool here and you’ve got a bit of, there still is a bit of tarpaulin there, this bit’s much further than it looks.  Erm, so I think there was tables along here and then we were sort of here, whereas I think other nights we’d been here because, as I said, I was putting the thing on the, the what’s it, there.  And I think the people Kate and Gerry were talking to were on that table there.  I think I was about here and Kate and Rachael.  I think Gerry was over here somewhere, because I know when the three of us sat down we sort of said ‘We’ll sit’ and I think Gerry sort of said ‘I’ll sit over here’, so it’s not, erm, I think, I don’t know why but.  Erm, I think Dianne was over here somewhere.  I think Russ was over here, I think Matt and Russ were there actually.  Fi might have been there and Dave there.  So that’s Dianne.  But I’m not a hundred percent on this, but that’s, but, yeah, I definitely know I was over this side”.

4078    “Well if that changes as you go through it if you could just let me know”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “We will call that JT1 if you don’t mind”.
 Reply    “Masterpiece”.

4078    “Yes, a TANNER original.  Right, so where were we.  Everyone has finally come together at the table?”
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And you were quite anxious about the time because you didn’t want to be putting everybody out?”
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah, it seemed like we were getting later and later every night we were there”.

4078    “And you have already said that everyone was getting on well, there was no friction or anything within the group?”
 Reply    “Uh hu”.

4078    “By that stage has anything changed?”
 Reply    “No, not at all, no.  As I say, at this stage, this is when everybody was sat down and everybody was saying how well it had all worked.  This was the night when we were all saying that, so, no, there was nothing.  And we’d had a really, I think in some ways it had been the nicest day because the weather had been nicer, we’d all had the chance, you know, we’d taken the kids to the beach, we were all saying, you know, it was probably, it’s ironic, but it had been the best day of the holiday so far because, you know, we’d been able to do something with the kids and blah blah, so”.

4078    “And you said the day before that Ella had been really tired?”
 Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “And they were both tired that evening?”
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Did the other couples discuss any of their children, anything worthy of comment?”
 Reply    “Erm, no, I don’t think so.  I think, I think Kate and Gerry might have said theirs were tired too because normally they, as I say, normally they would have probably still, when we’d all been, after tea, but they’d actually probably gone to bed a bit earlier than normal I think.  I think when I’d said to Kate about Ella having a complete flip, I think, you know, she sort of said ‘Oh yeah, they were, they were tired’, but nothing.  I mean, again, I could be just making that up, to be honest.  But I think everybody was saying their children were tired, you know, because of having such full days, you know, I mean, they were sailing and doing all these things that they don’t normally do, so they were they were tried”.

4078    “And up until that point was everybody happy with the child care checks that”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “The checks on the children?”
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah, I think so.  I think this night it was probably, we did checks more regularly early on than, than probably other, you know, or there seemed to be less time between checks.  And I think that’s because they were bringing the food a lot quicker because we were late, I think they were like ‘Right, lets get the food out so we can get’, not get rid of them, but.  So we were sort of, because I think when I went back to do the check it was probably less time after Russell had come than normal, you know, it wasn’t the strict half an hour, but I think it was because the food was coming and also I think with Evie not being quite, quite right, you know, we were making more, more checks.  And thinking about it now, looking at this, I was probably less confident in the monitor, by the position of the table, I mean, it was only a short bit but, than other nights”.

4078    “Did anybody else amongst the group mention that they wanted to do checks more frequently?”
 Reply    “No, not, no, no, I don’t think.  No, I think they were more staggered, because other nights I think we’d all got there more or less at the same time or not over such a, but this night, because we’d all got there at such, erm, different times, you know, it was more, I think that’s why they were sort of probably a bit more staggered and at different, you know, not all going together at one particular time to do the check”.

4078    “More of a rolling check really?”
 Reply    “Yeah, it was more of a, yeah”.

4078    “Right.  And you have already that Matt had gone off to chase up David and Fiona?”
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “But then subsequently you think he must have gone and done the check?”
 Reply    “Well he did, he met them coming down the road, so he thought, because he was up, he just literally went and listened.  I know he listened at our window.  And I don’t know whether he went in to see Grace, but I know he listened at Grace.  And I don’t know whether he listened at Madeleine’s window at that point, but”.

4078    “Okay.  So from what you do know, from your perspective, I take it it was much the same as the rest of the evenings, everyone was in good spirits?”
 Reply    “There was nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest, you know, we were just talking, you know, normally.  As I say, as I say, we were actually, I specifically remember saying ‘It’s been the best day of the holiday so far’, you know, there was no bad feeling between anybody or anything”.

4078    “By that time you had got to know Kate a bit more so you felt even more comfortable?”
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah, we were chatty, yeah, so”.

4078    “What about the rest of the restaurant, you have already said that there was a couple there that Kate and Gerry played tennis with?”
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Who else was around?”
 Reply    “Erm, I think it was, I think there was a, there was one man there that was there with his three children on his own, I don’t know whether he was divorced or whether.  Erm, and I think Gerry might have been on that table, that he, they actually asked, the two people that came, Gerry had spoken to originally, actually asked him to join them at some point.  I think they were like, this was the thing, they were almost on like their coffee by the time we got there, so I think, you know, he joined them for coffee, because his kids were playing in the play area, they were a bit older, his kids, they were sort of in their teens, well early teens”.

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “So there was, erm, yeah, there was them and they all, they joined together.  Erm, I think there was somebody on, there was another table back here and I think there might have been somebody on there but I can’t remember any, any details about them.  And then there were some people who had got sort of the, not great drawings, but you’ve got the bar area here which was enclosed and there were some tables in the side”.

4078    “Can you just write ‘bar area’ on that because I’ll forget”.
 Reply    “Yeah, and there were some people inside because it was quite chilly by, by this, it was actually quite, quite cold”.

4078    “Okay.  Do you want to go on now?”
 Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine, yeah”.
 4078    “What time is it?  It’s twenty to one.  Or do you want to stop for lunch?”
 Reply    “Erm”.

4078    “Because obviously the next part we’ll go into is the key”.
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.

4078    “So shall we stop you there?”
 Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine, yeah”.

4078    “What I’m saying is it’s lunchtime”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “No, but, you know, it is going to be quite intense the next one”.
 Reply    “No, that’s fine, yeah.  Yeah, definitely”.

4078    “Okay, it is twelve forty and we will stop this bit”.
 Tape counter times 43.56 
 SIGNATURE (Sgd)______________________________________________________ 
 SM J TANNER 08.04.08 
 Form MG15(T

Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview IV

L E I C E S T E R S H I R E C O N S T A B U L A R Y

Form MG15(T)

RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No SVF/108A

Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 46

Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby Signature of Interviewing

Date of Interview: 08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit

Time Commenced: 1349 hours

Time Concluded: 1509 hours Duration of Interview: 80 minutes

Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos: SVF/108

Other Persons Present None 

4078    “It is thirteen forty-eight on the afternoon of Tuesday the eighth of April two thousand and eight.  I am DC Sophie FERGUSON from Leicestershire Major Crime Unit.  And you are?”

Reply    “Jane Michelle TANNER”.

4078    “Thank you Jane.  We are here talking about Madeleine’s disappearance and we have already spoken, we have had three separate interviews this morning and we are just carrying on, going through the sequence of events, as far as you can recall at this length of time afterwards”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And just before we turned these tapes off you said that you had spoken with Russell over lunch and you now realise your plan is wrong?”

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “So if you just remember that?” 

Reply    “Erm, Russell said he was actually sitting between, erm, Rachael and Dianne.  So I think, I’ve got Dianne there. So Russell was there.  And I think Dave, I think Dave might have been there and Fiona there”.

4078    “Okay.  So it goes then from you, anti-clockwise if you like, it is you and Kate, Matthew?”

Reply    “That’s Matthew, yeah”.

4078    “Fiona?”

Reply    “Fiona”.

4078    “David PAYNE?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Gerry.  Dianne.  Russell?”

Reply    “Yeah, and then Rachael”.

4078    “Rachael and then back to you?”

Reply    “Yeah, as far as I can remember.  Like I say, this bit might be, a couple of them might be the opposite way round, but as far as I can remember”.

4078    “Okay.  As far as you can say?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And you have already said that you got to the restaurant and Gerry and Kate were there talking to the other tennis couple?”

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “So they were at that table and there was another party or couple?”

Reply    “I think, I think, yeah, as far as I can recall”.

4078    “Okay.  And when you first came did you speak to Gerry and Kate?”

Reply    “Yes, yeah”.

4078    “And how were things?”

Reply    “They were fine, completely normal, yeah”.

4078    “And then everybody arrived at slightly different times but by nine o’clock’ish everybody was there?”

Reply    “Yeah, everybody was there, yeah”.

4078    “And Matthew had gone off and done a check?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Because he had been up to see”.

Reply    “Yeah, to chivvy up, yeah”.

4078    “Right, okay.  Now you have had your lunch, is there anything else that you need to say before we move on?”

Reply    “Erm, I don’t think so.  I think just to, I was thinking, one thing I didn’t mention is at the, I’m not sure when, when abouts in the meal, but I did have a conversation with Kate about, she’d said that she’d, Madeleine had said something strange about ‘Where were you last night when I woke up’.  And, as I say, I can’t remember where in the meal she said this, but she did sort of say, oh I thought she said I thought that was a bit odd when, when Kate said, you know, Madeleine obviously she did say ‘Where were you when’, you know, I think she said ‘When Sean and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it was when two of them woke up.  So I think Kate was more worried that night, you know, whether leaving them was the, the right thing, or so to speak, so.  So you were saying then about the frequency of the checks.  I was just wondering if that was another reason, you know, why maybe the checks were more often”.

4078    “Yeah.  How did Kate seem when she mentioned that?”

Reply    “Fine, she was just sort of a bit, I think, you could see she was just a bit sort of concerned.  I think, because it was sort of like ‘Oh I wonder if she did wake up’.  I think she thought she hadn’t woken up really, Madeleine just was saying it.  But she did, yeah, you could tell it was, she was a bit sort of more worried, you know, than other, other nights there’d never been anything, but obviously the fact she’d said that, sort of”.

4078    “Put it into mind?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.

4078    “And you don’t remember exactly at what point that was said?”

Reply    “No, I think it was fairly early on, but, I mean, I don’t know whether it was, erm, I would think it would probably be early on.  I think it was when, I don’t think everybody else was there when she said that, so that would suggest it was early on.  But I can’t, that’s, that’s a recollection, I can’t say for sure”.

4078    “And you know you had said on the Wednesday, I think it was the Wednesday night, yeah, you said that you had stayed later and had more to drink than the previous nights?”

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “Do you remember sort of roughly how much you’d had?”

Reply    “No, I mean, we weren’t, you know, I mean, we weren’t sort of like roaring drunk, it wasn’t.  Erm, but I think just because we’d been there longer we probably had, I mean, I’d say I’d probably had four glasses of wine and then maybe the, I think at the end, I can’t remember what sort of a liqueur at the end, so”.

4078    “That is not a lot in the course of the evening?”

Reply    “No, I mean, over the, it wasn’t, it wasn’t loads, but, I mean, it was probably more than other nights probably”.

4078    “Okay.  Right, lets go back to the Thursday then.  Everybody has sat down eventually and I take it the food has been ordered.  Take me through then, as you can remember it, and take as much time as you need”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “To remember in as much detail as possible, because the more you say the less likely I am going to have come back and ask questions later”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “So there is no rush, just in your own time”.

Reply    “Yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, I think everybody, everybody arrived about nine o’clock.  I think we ordered fairly, as soon as Dave and Fi arrived we sort of like ordered almost straight away I think.  And almost I think as soon after Dave and Fi arrived Gerry went to do his check, because they’d already been there since sort of half past eight, so, you know, sort of like it was half an hour, a half an hour check for them.  So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal.  Erm, and then I think we thought ‘Oh well the starters are going to appear any minute’.  So Russ had sort of come down about quarter to.  And I think at this point, I don’t know whether I knew that Matt had been and listened or what, so I remember saying to Russ ‘Shall I got and check’ and I remember at that time thinking ‘Oh can I persuade Russ to go and check so I don’t have to’.  But, no, so, you know, I’ll go and check at that point. So, timing wise, I mean, I think it was sort of five past, ten past, ten past nine, around, around that sort of time”.

4078    “From what I know from reading statements, Gerry was still absent?”

Reply    “He wasn’t there at that point, no, no.  So, erm, then I walked, so I just walked out the, erm, the Ocean Club bit and walked, sort of walked up the road.  And then Gerry was there, he was talking to Jez WILKINS in the road, well they were sort of, as I went by.  So I think I thought then ‘Oh that’s why Jez’, not Jez, ‘That’s why Gerry has been, you know, that’s why he’s longer than we thought’”

4078    “Backtrack a little.  How long after Gerry had gone was it before you went to do your check?”

Reply    “Well I think it must have been, well it must have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone, before I actually left there had been the conversations about him being waylaid.  So, I mean, if, I think it must have been sort of five or ten minutes, five or ten minutes after he’d gone.  I can’t say for sure, but”.

4078    “And from the time when you obviously didn’t feel it appropriate to persuade Russell to go and check”.

Reply    “Yeah, it was my turn”.

4078    “From the time you left the Tapas Bar, when you are talking, try and put yourself back there”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “It is a long time ago, I know, we have already discussed the feasibility of this.  But describe, not just that you saw Gerry up the road, describe what route you take and what you can see and what you can hear and whether it is light or dark and any other noises that you are conscious of”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “I know it is a tall order”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “But just do the best you can”.

Reply    “Yeah.  Erm, I’m just trying to, well I’ve walked out of the, walked out of the, erm, the Tap, you know, walked sort of into the reception of the Tapas Bar and obviously walked up the road.  I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then.  Oh I’m sidetracking a bit, but that’s why I knew one of the pictures in the paper wasn’t from the holiday, because I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, so.  Erm, yeah, and I’d got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, so I can remember sort of walking, I couldn’t walk that quickly because I’d got these silly flip-flops on and I couldn’t walk that, that well in them, so to speak.  Erm, and I walked, I was walking up the road and I can’t remember exactly, I know this,  I know, I think Gerry thinks he was somewhere different to where I think they were standing, but I was fairly sure, as I walked up the road, they were standing, one of them was in the road and one of them was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought it was on the side of the road that I was walking, but I know Gerry thinks they were the other side.  But I thought they were closer by, because as I walked by, I almost did go to sort of acknowledge them and I thought at that point ‘Oh they were cha cha cha’ and I did think, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t know whether they’d seen me or not, but I did actually go to acknowledge them and I think if they’d have been that far away I don’t know whether I would have sort of almost gone to say hello, but.  But they were talking quite (inaudible), so I just carried on, you know, up, up the road.  I mean, I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway.  I think sort of”

.

4078    “Is that the alleyway, sorry, would that be (inaudible)?”

Reply    “Yeah, sort of here.  I thought they were sort of round this sort of bit here”.

4078    “Yeah, so on the plan that you have drawn can you put a cross where you”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “I know you are uncertain because you think Gerry’s recollection is different, but as far as you can remember”.

Reply    “Well I think one of them was in the road and I think, I thought it was Jez in the road because he had the pram.  And I don’t know which, I can’t remember which way he was facing.  No, I mean, I think I remember in my statement I did say, but I can’t remember now which way he was facing.  And I thought Gerry was almost like on the edge of the pavement or just, just in the road sort of, but definitely sort of by that, sort of more by this alleyway.  I don’t think they were by the apartment gate, I thought they were sort of a bit further down, down the road than that”.

4078    “So where would the apartment gate be then?”

Reply    “Probably here I should think”.

4078    “And that would lead down to the roadside door of their apartment or the poolside door of their apartment?”

Reply    “That leads to the poolside door”.

4078    “Right.  So you think they were quite a bit further down?”

Reply    “I think, yeah, I mean, somewhere within this, I don’t think they were right outside the gate for sure.  I don’t, I’m not sure, but they were definitely, I definitely can’t remember them being right over here, purely because I know I did go to acknowledge them and I don’t think if they were over there I would have thought to acknowledge them.  Because it was almost like ‘Oh did I ignore them as I walked past’, you know, it was almost that thought in my head, you know, ‘Should I have stopped to say hello’.  And now obviously I wished I bloody had.  But, you know, sort of, so I think, I, I’m still convinced they were nearer to that side of the road than that side of the road”.

4078    “So you come out of the Tapas Bar and presumably you have walked along that way, have you?”

Reply    “Yeah, I’ve come out here, through the gate”.

4078    “And that is up the hill, is it?”

Reply    “And up the hill, yeah”.

4078    “And when you have gone past Gerry and Jez whereabouts have they been in relation to you?”

Reply    “If I’m walking this way, they were sort of”.

4078    “So they were to your right?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Okay.  Go on”.

Reply    “So, yeah, so I went past them, erm, up to the, and then walking up to the top of the road and then, as I got to the top, this person, somebody walked across the top of the road with, with a child.  And obviously at that point I just thought ‘Oh it’s somebody taking their kid to bed’, so to speak”.

4078    “Go back again.  Pretend I don’t know anything about this”.

Reply    “Okay”.

4078    “Pretend it has not been in the papers”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Or, you know, I know we have discussed it between ourselves before (inaudible)”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “But, as far as you can, try and tell me as though I am somebody that doesn’t know anything about this”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “And you have walked up that hill, was it light or dark by that point?”

Reply    “I think it was getting, I think it was getting dark, I can’t, yeah, it was definitely, because the lights, the street lights were on, so it was definitely, because it was quite, erm, it was quite orangy, I think they were was sort of like a bit of an orangy.  It’s so hard to.  Yeah, the street lights were definitely on and I think it was, I think it was fairly dark by this time, because I think that’s why I was sort of thinking ‘Oh lets send Russell, send Russell back rather than’, well not, but, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Oh I can’t be bothered to go up and check, I’m sure I can persuade Russell to go’, but then I decided to go myself, so.  So I think, I think it was, I think it was getting, it was dark”.

4078    “What about other people, what other noises?”

Reply    “No, I mean, there was no, apart from Gerry, well apart from Gerry and Jez there was nobody else around.  And I think when you went down to the, often when we went down to the, erm, Tapas Bar there was people then because it was earlier and I think a lot of people had said we’re eating earlier, so were often going home almost as we were coming down, so you would see people walking around then, whereas, as it got later, it did turn into more sort of a ghost town type, so.  So, yeah, I didn’t really see anybody.  I’d say, I think, again, which made me thought it was even odder, I think when I’d been to check other nights at that time I probably hadn’t seen anybody before, it was more earlier that you saw people carrying their children around”.

4078    “What time would this have been around?”

Reply    “I’d say it was around ten past nine’ish”.

4078    “So you have left the Tapas Bar and you have gone up that hill.  What is there, is there a pavement and a road there?”

Reply    “Yeah, there’s sort of like a pavement which is sort of almost like made up of, it’s not cobbles, but made up of small stones”.

4078    “Not ideal for flip-flop wearers?”

Reply    “No, because I do remember, I was almost looking at my, sort of not looking at my feet, but I was sort of padding, because obviously I was trying to get to do the check and get back as quick as possible as well, so I just thought ‘Oh I’ll just go and do the check as quick as possible’ and I did think, I was not struggling to walk in my flip-flips, but, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t striding”.

4078    “Yeah”.

Reply    “Erm”.

4078    “And, like you say, there’s a kind of orange tint to things?”

Reply    “There was, yeah, that bit I do, and thinking, I’m thinking that more from leaving the table, I think this bit, I can remember sort of being quite dark, you know, sort of by the pool, the pool lights and everything being, being quite dark”.

4078    “So your intention as you are walking up the road was just to check on Ella and Evie?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, just to check on them”.

4078    “Just your two?”

Reply    “Yeah, nobody else.  Because, well Gerry was there, so I thought he’d just checked.  Matt had checked when he’d, erm, been to chivvy up Dave and Fi.  And we never checked on Dave and Fi because they had their monitor, which they were quite happy with, so they didn’t check at all, so”.

4078    “So you were just trying to get to check your girls as quickly as you could and get back as quick as you could?”

Reply    “For the starters, yeah.  I mean, now you think.  But, yeah, that was, that was just in my head, just get there, check they’re okay and come back”.

4078    “Okay.  So when did you first notice Gerry standing there?”

Reply    “I would have probably noticed him as soon as I came, I mean, I don’t, this is not, I don’t think that distance is probably as far as that, you come out and he was, they were sort of, so almost, I’d probably say almost straight away.  Again, I don’t know, but I, I know people are saying I’ve not been on the road, but they were there and I wouldn’t know they were there if I hadn’t walked past, you know, you’ve got to see my frustration in this, and I know Gerry didn’t see me and Jez didn’t see me, but”.

4078    “You were there?”

Reply    “They were there and I was there”.

4078    “And you say you almost went to acknowledge them but they were so engrossed in conversation?”

Reply    “They were, yeah.  I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve met Gerry, but other people have met Gerry, and when Gerry is talking, it’s bit like I said earlier, that he is very focussed, he is a very focussed person.  And it doesn’t surprise me he didn’t see me, because if he’s talking he’s very focussed on what he’s doing at that stage.  I mean, obviously I don’t  know, I don’t know Jez, I hadn’t actually, I hadn’t had any contact with Jez through the week, I didn’t, you know, he wasn’t somebody we chatted to, so, you know, in terms of him recognising me or knowing me, he didn’t know me, so”.

4078    “And can you remember, as you past them or thought to acknowledge them, then you noticed they were deep in conversation, can you remember which angle you saw them from, which way they were facing?”

Reply    “No, I, phew, again, I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me, because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble, you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’, you know, but.  Because I think that’s almost when I went to acknowledge them, that’s almost what went through my head, you know, is to sort of give a bit of abuse about the fact he’d been so long, but.  So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but.  And, again, in that way, that would make more sense, because I don’t know Jez, so it’s not like I would have gone ‘Oh hi Jez’, you know, that way, so.  Yeah, I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were.  But I do, I stand by the fact I’m sure they were nearer than right over here”.

4078    “Okay.  And did you hear what they were saying?”

Reply    “No.  No, not really.  Not that I can remember”.

4078    “Were there any cars around there?”

Reply    “Erm, umm, no, I don’t know.  I don’t remember.  I don’t remember walking past any going up here and I think I would have probably, if there had been I would have realised, because that would have obscured my view of the person walking, so I can’t think of, I can’t think of any, no”.

4078    “So as you are trying to remember it and you can think of yourself walking up that road and you have gone past Gerry and Jez”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “Are you conscious of any other movement?”

Reply    “It’s, it’s too long now.  Erm, no, not really.  I mean, I was just walking up, you know, I was like just sort of on a, not on a mission, but I was just like, you know, on the way to, to check, so I didn’t notice anything either side.  The only thing I noticed a movement was when somebody walked across at the top”.

4078    “Go on to tell me about that then as slowly as you can?”

Reply    “Yes, erm, I was, I think I was nearing the top of the road, it’s a bit of a, I’m trying to think how, but I can’t really remember how much of a hill it is, but it is definitely a hill going up there, and just as I got to the top somebody did walk across.  And the thing that really struck me was the, erm, the bare feet.  And the thought that came into my head was, I’ll say when we’re in Leicester, our children were quite adaptable, and what we used to do is, we used to walk round to Dave and Fi’s house for, erm, the kids, for tea with the kids, the kids would play, we’d put them in a travel cot there and we’d sometimes stay a bit later and then carry the kids home, because it’s only, it’s like the next road.  And we’d wrap them in a blanket or whatever, but you could always, their feet would fall, their feet would fall out the bottom and you’d think ‘Oh they’re going to get cold feet’ because they’d always wriggle.  So one thing I thought was ‘Oh a bit of a bad parent like us, you know, that kid’s obviously being taken home’ or whatever.  And I think that’s all, you know, that’s sort of, erm, I think that’s where the sort of I thought ‘Oh’, and that was the only reason I really clocked it I think.  Because at that point I thought it’s a person taking their child either back from the crèche or, you know, just some father carrying their own child, so it didn’t really, you know, and that didn’t.  I’m making it sound like it really registered at the time, but it didn’t, that is literally, I thought ‘Oh’”.

4078    “That moment in time?”

Reply    “Yeah, I just thought that”.

4078    “That was in your mind?”

Reply    “Yeah, that is, erm, and I think at that point I did think as well, the way they were dressed wasn’t quite touristy.  As I say, I mean, I looked a right state because I’d got Russell’s big jumper on, cropped trousers and flip-flips and, yeah, it was quite, you know, sort of cold and, and they looked more like they were prepared for the weather, you know, sort of thing.  And I think when Jez, I think Jez had probably got shorts on and, you know, a jumper or something, and looked more like.  He just didn’t look quite like a, you know, a tourist, I suppose, or, so”.

4078    “Yes, us Brits abroad like to try and brave, if we’re on holiday we like to have,    wear holiday clothes, don’t we?”

Reply    “Well”. 

4078    (inaudible)

Reply    “Yeah, and I think it was just that factor was, it just didn’t look quite, you know, it just didn’t look quite like a tourist on holiday or somebody you would imagine on a MARK WARNER holiday carrying their kid home.  As I say, this is all in hindsight”.

4078    “I know, yeah.  And also you said that, you know, your immediate assumption or not probably even thought about it that much at the time, but you thought he might have been carrying a child home from the crèche?”

Reply    “Yeah, well I think you did see people, I mean, not that late at night, and, again, that should have made me think more, but especially sort of, you know, earlier on you’d see them carrying children in pyjamas to the, the crèche where you can leave them at night and then pick them up again”.

4078    “Would that fit in with the direction he had come from?”

Reply    “Well, again, no.  Well, it would have been, I mean, at that time, you would of more expected him to be going the other way, coming back from the crèche maybe.  But he could have gone, if he’d have gone that way and then cut down, there is a way you could have cut down to the crèche, going that way, so”.

4078    “Okay”.

Reply    “So really, you know, at the time, I thought.  And I think I did actually think ‘Oh a bit odd’, but never in a million years would I have thought ‘That’s Madeleine’.  And I think, well Gerry was standing on the bloomin’ road, so I thought he’d, not thought, he’d just, he had just checked, you know, I thought he’d just checked”.

4078    “If you had have thought that was Madeleine at the time you would have said?”

Reply    “Well, yeah, if I’d have thought, yeah, you know, if I’d have seen it was Madeleine you’d have, you know, I’m not going to go ‘Oh there goes Madeleine’, you know, I would have shouted, but.  But, yeah, I know the Police think I’m a sympathetic witness and whatever, but I don’t know what I can do to”.

4078    “You can only say what you saw”.

Reply    “But I did see it, you know, I think that is the.  I’m sorry”.

4078    “It’s alright”.

Reply    “But, you know, it’s just the frustration of not being believed on this, it’s”.

4078    “Yeah (inaudible)”.

Reply    “No, but the best thing that could happen to me, apart from Madeleine being found, is somebody coming up and saying ‘That was me’, you know, ‘That was me walking across there’, because, you know, you know, I don’t want that to be Madeleine, but, you know, there’s no, but I’m convinced that was and, you know, people have got to, so I don’t know what I can do to make them believe that.  I’m sorry”.

4078    “Don’t worry.  Take a moment”.

Reply    “But, you know, I think it’s, I do, I’m not the sort of person that would make this up, I don’t want any limelight, you know, you’ve only got to look, ask people that know me, I’m not”.

4078    “You wish you hadn’t seen it?”

Reply    “I just, yeah, I do, I wish I hadn’t.  As I say, I wish I’d made Russell go at that point.  I really wish I hadn’t seen this.  But, you know, they have to, and, as I say, apart from Madeleine being found, the best thing that could happen to me is somebody coming and saying ‘No, you’re wrong Jane that wasn’t them, that was me carrying my child’, that is what, you know, I dream of happening, after Madeleine being found, you know”.

4078    “All you can do for now Jane is just say what you saw”.

Reply    (inaudible)

4078    “It’s alright.  Do you want to take a moment?”

Reply    “No, no, it’s just”.

4078    “You can only say what you saw”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “And you can only do it as far as you can do it”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “You can’t add detail that you didn’t see”.

Reply    “No”.

4078    “Because at that time it was just a passing glimpse”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And it didn’t really register with you until later on when things fell into place”.

Reply    “Yeah.  No, exactly”.

4078    “So, if you are ready”.

Reply    “Yeah, sorry”.

4078    “It’s alright.  I can fully understand why you have so much frustration.  And, in as much as the part where Gerry thinks he was standing somewhere slightly different to where you saw him, well that, you know, people do see things from different perspectives”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “And that, you know, it doesn’t matter.  You can only say what you can remember and as far as you can remember it.  And if it is different from how it was then things can be explained”.

Reply    “Well, I mean, just whatever, they were, they were standing there.  And, you know, just from, how I wouldn’t know they were standing there.  And if I was trying to make this up, don’t you think I would have made damn sure they saw me.  Why on earth would I say I saw them and then they turn round and say they didn’t see me.  It’s just, you know, it’s just, you know, I think that’s just, yeah, it’s just.  I’m not making this up”.

4078    “Because of the Case that this is and it has been in the Press a lot and you have received a lot of comment and a lot of unwelcome comment as well I should imagine, that is bound to reflect on how you feel about”.

Reply    “Yeah, I know, yeah”.

4078    “Things.  But our purpose today”.

Reply    “I know, I need to forget that”.

4078    “Is to go over again what you saw and not because we don’t believe you just because we need to go back through everything”.

Reply    “Yeah, I know, yeah.  But I just want, you know, obviously from my point of view, I really want to make sure that I am believed, because I am not lying on this, I’m really not, and I just think it’s important.  And I think that’s my frustration as well, if I’ve not been believed up to this point, I should have been asked this months ago.  You should have put, you know, interrogated me to find out if I am lying months ago, you know, not just think ‘Oh no, she’s made that up’ because somebody didn’t see me walk by, I just think that is the point I want to make and to live with that, knowing that’s not being taken into account, is hard.  Anyway, but, so I just want to make that point”.

4078    “ Yeah, but also, from our point of view, that has been taken into account what you have said”.

Reply    “Oh, yeah, I know, okay, I agree, yeah”.

4078    “It is not”.

Reply    “I know, the problem is, it’s just getting the Press and the”.

4078    “Yeah”.

Reply    “It all gets (inaudible)”.

4078    “Yeah, it does get distorted.  But, I mean, certainly from our perspective, that has definitely been taken into account”.

Reply    “Okay, yeah, I’ll stop ranting now, sorry”.

4078    “No, it’s alright.  I just don’t want you to feel that, you know, nobody is listening to you”.

Reply    “Yeah, I know, yeah”.

4078    “Because we have been”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Right.  Okay.  So you have seen Gerry and you have seen Jez?”

Reply    “So this person, he walked across the road and the things, I think the three things that struck me was the feet, purely for the reason, and that’s the reason I spotted them, the clothes were a bit, not what I’d expect and also they were walking quite, quite, they looked like they were, they weren’t running but it was a purposeful walk, so they were walking quite purposefully”.

4078    “Where were they, I was going to exactly, but exactly, in as far as you can remember?”

Reply    “They were sort of, I think I spotted them sort of in the middle, sort of here’ish or, I don’t, I mean, I can’t say for sure, but sort of more sort of from that angle and then they were carrying on that way”.

4078    “And was that, is there another pavement there, on the junction?”

Reply    “No, they were on, there’s a junction, this is sort of the road and they were walking along the side of the pavement, then I would then walk along”.

4078    “So they were on the same side that you were about to walk along?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Right.  And when you first became aware of this man holding the child, if you can try and picture in your mind, as I am sure you have done over and over again, and start from the top of his head and work your way down and tell me what he looked like?”

Reply    “You see this is where now I’m really, I don’t even know whether it’s worth doing this, because there’s been so much, since then I’ve had the, when they took me round for the surveillance to look at, and I’m guessing now it’s MURAT they wanted me to look at and, you know, all the other bits and bobs, I really don’t know, but I think I’d prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things were, were murky, I needed to that sketch that first night, I mean, they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing was the thing that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?”

4078    “Yeah”.

Reply    “Because he took me in the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the clothes or a side, a side view’.  And he sort of said ‘No, we don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’.  And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been, and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to get down on paper.  But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t do that, we don’t work in that way’.  Which I can understand and, you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know, you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the way things do’, but”

.

4078    “Yeah”.

Reply    “But, I mean, I think, so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know, sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head.  And sort of the dark, dark clothes and quite billowy, not billowy clothes, but quite baggy, sort of they seemed, erm, not ill fitting but quite baggy clothes, like not jeans, but trousers sort of not Chinos but not Farrahs either, but sort of baggy’ish sort of ill fitting more than.  And they’re the bits that I remember quite vividly sort of”.

4078    “And what colours?”

Reply    “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”.

4078    “You know the artist’s impression that you”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “That has been circulated a lot.  How happy are you with that?”

Reply    “Erm, phew, reasonably, but, I mean, it was the best I could do after that time, I mean, it was more, the hair was the one thing on that that I wasn’t completely happy about but we couldn’t get it any better because it was the sort of, I almost think that might have been slightly too long or just, but on the whole I think the actual sort of style and everything was, was fairly right.  I mean, I tried to do that though from my original description that we wrote down, sort of well afterwards (inaudible) we tried to get all our thoughts down and I tried to do it as much as I could from that, because six months on, as I say, there was, I think the problem is there’d been so much put into my head since then, like doing the surveillance and, you know, looking at people on that and things, it was very hard to, to do it”.

4078    “I must come back and talk about that when we have finished going through everything”.

Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine, yeah”.

4078    “What about the height of the man?”

Reply    “Erm, phew, well, you know, I did it on the, I sort of pointed out where it was on the person that interviewed me originally and, erm, sort of, not six foot but taller than me but sort of not, but not, I’d say I think it was sort of about five foot nine, five foot ten.  But I think that had got confused in translation because I don’t know what it was in metres and they sort of then transferred that into metres from my statement, so I think it came out actually lower.  But I think it was sort of like five foot nine, five foot ten, as much as I could, so”.

4078    “Okay.  And his build?”

Reply    “Medium, well sort of just normal build.  As I say, I think the clothes were quite baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably was, but.  And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been out, you know, sort of.  So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a medium’ish build”.

4078    “And you said earlier you thought he was, I can’t remember what word you used, walking, you didn’t say briskly, but”.

Reply    “Purposefully”.

4078    “Purposefully”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Did you notice anything else about the way he walked?”

Reply    “Not really, just that it was very, as I say, it did seem quite a very, you know, a purposeful.  And also the way he was carrying was sort of, it’s the way I would pick my children up if I didn’t want to wake them up, you know, if you’re sort of picking them up to put them into another bed or something, it is the way I would pick them up if they were asleep, because it’s, normally you would imagine you would carry them over your shoulder or something.  So, again, in hindsight, that was probably a bit of an odd way to be, you know, be carrying, but”.

4078    “Is there anything else about the man that you can remember now?”

Reply    “No, I mean, I would be so worried now about things that are put into my, I think the only two things that I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”.

4078    “And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?”

Reply    “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet.  But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description.  And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas.  And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas.  Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”.

4078    “And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?”

Reply    “I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”.

4078    “And, overall, what colour would you say the pyjama bottoms were?”

Reply    “Erm, I can’t, I can’t remember, I mean, I, I can’t remember, well I can’t remember now, but I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink.  That’s, that’s what I thought at the time.  It’s harder because now I know what the pyjamas were so I can’t”.

4078    “It is very difficult”.

Reply    “I think that is hard for me to actually”.

4078    “Yeah”.

Reply    “To think now because I can, I can see them now”.

4078    “Because you know what actually they would have been if it had have been Madeleine?”

Reply    “Yeah, exactly, yeah, so I can’t really go back to thinking what they were”.

4078    “It is very difficult.  What about the child’s feet then, what can you say about feet, if anything, other than that they were uncovered?”

Reply    “Just that they were uncovered and it looked like they were, you know, they seemed to be asleep.  I mean, they was definitely, you know, they were, as you would imagine if the child was asleep.  But, you know, that’s all, that’s all I can, like I say, it was more just the, the fact they were, you know, you could see them”.

4078    “And the way you have held your hands like that, were the feet side-by-side like that?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “So the child would have been held on its back?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And you say that they were very relaxed as though they were asleep?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, they were not, there was no, you know, there was no struggle or any, yeah, they just looked like they were asleep.  So, again, if you’d imagine somebody had been just, you know, taken out of their bed or something you’d imagine they’d be, but, no, they were very, you know, asleep”.

4078    “How long do you think it was that you had them in sight?”

Reply    “Erm, phew, not that, I mean, I did, I think I did go like that after they’d gone, so it probably wasn’t, phew, it’d be seconds, wouldn’t it, it’d be just like, phew, a few seconds and then as I got to the top I think I went like that, which I think is when I noticed more that they were walking quite quick.  But, no, I mean, not, you know, not, not that long at all”.

4078    “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?”

Reply    “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”.

4078    “How far away from you were they at the closest point?”

Reply    “Phew, as, I mean, it’s hard to, sort of thing, but I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.

4078    “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”

Reply    “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.

4078    “So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”.

4078    “I don’t know why I was looking over there, it’s like I was (inaudible)”.

Reply    “I know.  But, yeah, I’d say probably, and then obviously I was walking as they were walking, so it would have probably, I don’t know whether it would have gone less or, but, I mean, I wasn’t like staring, you know, it was sort of like a”.

4078    “A passing interest, yeah?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Right.  Okay.  Are you okay?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “So the man and the child have moved off down the road towards, do you know where that goes towards?”

Reply    “Erm, well it’s just this road, I think it’s, erm, I’d be here, so they’re walking up here.  Say that’s the top of the road there, so they’re walking along here”.

4078    “And what is that in the direction of, do you know, where does that ultimately go to?”

Reply    “That sort of goes, that goes up to the road, that’s the main road out, well to get out of the town or so to speak.  You sort of go up here and then back and that will take you to, to the crèche”.

4078    “Okay”.

Reply    “And the sort of car park is here.  These bits here are sort of the car parky bit”.

4078    “And when you say you saw them walk down and you might have turned back as well, whereabouts were they at the point where you turned back?”

Reply    “Erm, I’d say probably about there.  They were, well round this bit, they weren’t as far as the car parky bit.  I’m trying to picture that area there.  But they weren’t, they were probably, by that stage, probably about three times that distance or”.

4078    “Yeah”.

Reply    “You know, sort of a bit more than, than that distance away”.

4078    “On the same side of the road?”

Reply    “The same side of the road as, yeah”.

4078    “And was there anything about the way he walked or the speed that he was walking that made you think he was about to change direction?”

Reply    “No, no, no, he was just sort of, just walking”.

4078    “So you are unable to say where he stopped or?”

Reply    “No, he was just walking on that way as I looked and then I’d, I’d sort of went the opposite way, went the opposite way to carry on the check”.

4078    “So thinking then about the last glimpse you had of him, when you turned back and you saw him and you say he was not yet at the car park, he was on the same side of the road.  Are you happy with the way you have described the lighting that there was a kind of an orangy tint?”

Reply    “Yeah, as much as I can remember.  I mean, I don’t, it was, I’m sure it was, it was, it was dark, it was getting, it was fairly, I’m sure it was fairly, phew.  I’m trying to think.  Yeah, I’m sure it was fairly dark by that, it was, the street lights were definitely, I’m sure the street lights were definitely.  I can’t say, but I think it was, I think it was getting fairly dark”.

4078    (inaudible)

Reply    “Yeah, fairly dark.  I’m sure, phew, I might be completely wrong, but”.

4078    “As far as you can say at the moment, that is what you think?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And again I am going to ask about cars”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Were there any, did you notice any cars around?”

Reply    “There were cars around but, phew, because you’ve often got them, say, sort of down this bit here.  But I can’t remember what they were or I didn’t notice anything that looked odd, you know, no car that seemed to be standing out from anything else, so”.

4078    “No”.

Reply    “No”.

4078    “So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?”

Reply    “No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”.

4078    “And, what was I going to ask then.  Yeah, if you were, you don’t need to say anything at the moment.  But go back in your own mind and think of what you have just told me again”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “You have just concentrated on the visual aspect of what you saw”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “Go back over it and have a think if you heard anything from the point where you have passed Gerry and Jez to seeing this man, what could you hear?”

Reply    “Phew, I can’t think of anything, there was nothing, no, nothing that comes to mind, there was nothing, as I say, I can’t remember hearing a car or, no, nothing, I mean, it was quite, apart from, as I say, it was very quiet really around there”.

4078    “What about the man and the child, did you hear his footsteps?”

Reply    “No, not that I can remember”.

4078    “Not that you were conscious of?”

Reply    “No, no, not that I’m conscious of, no”.

4078    “Okay.  So you have glimpsed, you know, turned back and see the man disappearing off down the road with the child and, at that time, didn’t really think anything of it other than the child might have cold feet?”

Reply    “Yeah, and just”.

4078    “And later on did you think it was significant?”

Reply    “It was a, yeah, it was sort of came as soon as, as soon as they said that came, buff, straight.  As soon as I’d seen it there it was forgotten and then, buff, as soon as Rachael said”.

4078    “So then you are back on track going to check Ella and Evie”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “Tell me from there what happened?”

Reply    “So I just carried on walking the opposite way into and then walked through the car park and into our apartment through the back, through the roadside, the roadside door.  And, like I say, I just went in, it was all, they were both, I actually went into the room and checked and they were both quiet.  And then, as I say, I just walked straight back to the restaurant.  I didn’t see anything.  I didn’t see them there when I walked back, they weren’t, there was nobody that I spotted and Gerry and Jez had gone by that stage as well, I think they’d gone back into, well Gerry had obviously gone back into the restaurant and I don’t know where Jez had gone, but I didn’t see them again after, after that point”.

4078    “How long did it take you to check on your daughters?”

Reply    “I don’t know, (inaudible) question, erm, I was probably only in there, phew, a minute or a minute and a half literally.  I’m trying to think if I went to the loo or anything and I don’t think I did, I think I just literally went in, erm, I don’t know.  I think I literally went in and looked at them and then, and then went back.  As I say I was almost conscious that it was just a quick check before, it sounds like I wasn’t bothering and I was desperate to get back for the food, but, you know, that was sort of just like a quick check before the food came”.

4078    “Yeah, okay.  Right.  So did you take the same route back to the Tapas Bar?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And on the route back can you remember seeing anybody?”

Reply    “No, I have to say, not, not at all.  And Gerry and Jez had gone by that time, so”.

4078    “And what was going through your mind as you walked back, anything, that you can remember?”

Reply    “Erm, no, I don’t think so.  I mean, this person wasn’t really etched on my brain, it was just, erm, I think I was just thinking ‘Oh the kids are alright’, you know, ‘I’ll go back’”.

4078    “Tell me what happened then from there and I will try not to interrupt you?”

Reply    “No, that’s fine.  Erm, so I went back, erm, we just carried on with the meal.  And then, I think, erm, I can’t remember anything odd, you know, within that, that time.  And then I think, it’s been, I think, I can’t remember who said ‘Oh time to check again’, I think it actually might have been Kate that said ‘Oh it’s half nine I’ll go and do a check’.  And I think Matt said at that point, Matt and Russ said ‘Oh we’ll go, do you want us to look in on’, erm, on, you know, ‘on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie’.  As I say, I don’t know, I wasn’t really part of this, I don’t know how it, who actually said ‘It’s time for a check’, but I can remember sort of, erm, them saying to Kate ‘Oh do you want us to put our head in’.  And I think because Gerry had only, you know, probably had been in there a bit longer, she probably thought ‘Oh yeah’, you know, and let them.  I think Russ had checked earlier in the week once on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie.  But I don’t want to say who checked with him because I don’t, I don’t know that, but”.

4078    “Yes, I mean, you know from what you did really”.

Reply    “Yeah, so, so Matt and Russell went back to, erm, to check and I think they went first to, I don’t know, whether they went first round the back to our apartments, because to get to check on Sean and Amelie they would go through the pool side door, whereas, I think Matt and Rachael’s they would go on the roadside doors to do the checks, so.  And that’s when Russell found Evie was awake so he stayed there with Evie.  And then I think Matt checked on Grace and then went and checked on Madeleine, Sean and Amelie and then went back to the restaurant”.

4078    “During the time obviously that they were doing that, you were sat at the table?”

Reply    “Yeah, we were just sat at the table, yeah”.

4078    “And at what stage in the meal were you at then?”

Reply    “Phew, that must have been just before the mains came I think.  Because I think that might be why they thought they’d go and check, because I think it was just before the mains came.  Because I know when Matt came back I was sort of halfway through my main meal, because he said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s woken up’.  And so I think wolfed down the rest of my meal so I could go back and take over so Russ could come down and finish his.  So I’m guessing it must have just been before the, before the mains came”.

4078    “And can you remember what was being spoken about at that stage?”

Reply    “Erm, no, I can’t, I mean, there was, we had a joke the night, earlier, a bit rude this bit, but we had a joke earlier in the week that, erm, when Russell had been, stayed back in the room, I was going to go back and relieve him, so I think we were joking about that ‘Oh Jane’s off to relieve Russ again’, so that was, I mean, that was the only thing I can think, that was just a, you know”.

4078    “So it was all good spirits?”

Reply    “Yeah, it was good spirits, it was like that joke again ‘Oh Jane’s got to go and relieve’, erm, so, yeah, there was nothing, you know, there was nothing odd or anything about it, it was just, just joking”.

4078    “And because it will affect your recollection of what happened and things, how much had you drank that night?”

Reply    “The thing is, that night I probably drunk less than a lot of the others, because I’d been at the table probably only for, well an hour, forty minutes at that, you know, not very long at all, by the time we all sat down and actually ordered the wine it was almost nine o’clock anyway because everybody was so late, so, you know, I wasn’t, I hadn’t had that much to drink and because we’d had more to drink the night before I think we were drinking more slowly anyway.  And I hadn’t had, whereas normally I would have probably had a beer on the beach, I can actually remember”.

4078    “Orange juice”.

Reply    “It was an orange juice that we’d had on the beach.  So, no, I wasn’t, at that, at, especially, well, I definitely roaring drunk at that point?”

4078    “And what about the rest of the group, can you comment on what they were drinking?”

Reply    “Erm, no, we just tended to stick with, because the wine was included, we tended to stick with just the, the wine that was given, so.  I’ll tell you, the person who drank most of the wine was actually Fiona’s mum, Dianne was the, was the biggest drinker of the lot of us actually, which is quite”.

4078    “It’s coping with all those children around her”.

Reply    “Yeah, exactly.  So, no, I mean, nobody was, nobody was that drunk that night at all”.

4078    “Right.  And you already mentioned that you think it was that evening, earlier on in the meal, that Kate had mentioned that Madeleine had made that comment?”

Reply    “Yeah, the day before”.

4078    “About her and Sean being awake?”

Reply    “Yeah, the day before”.

4078    “And you also mentioned, I think, that that was the evening where you had all commented on how well the holiday was going?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, we’d, erm, it was, I think we’d all said it, because, well, as I say, the weather had been better, we had been to the beach and we’d just had a really nice day and it was almost like, you know, this is, you know, it’s been an ideal holiday for, you know, for all of us really at that point, so.  There was no, you know, under currents of anything being wrong or anything, it was, it was just totally normal”.

4078    “Right.  Okay.  So Matthew has gone to check, Gerry has gone to check, you have gone to check and now Russell and Matthew went together to check?”

Reply    “Erm, yeah, so Matthew”.

4078    “Russell and?”

Reply    “Russell and Matthew went, yeah”.

4078    “And Russell ended up staying behind because Evie wasn’t very well?”

Reply    “Because Evie wasn’t, yeah, because she’d woken up”.

4078    “So you rushed your meal?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “So you could then relieve Russell?”

Reply    “Yeah, relieve Russell, yeah, sorry.  I can see the headline there”.

4078    “Yeah.  Okay.  Do you remember if Matthew made a comment when he came back, other than telling you that Russell had stayed behind?”

Reply    “Erm, no, not that I can remember.  He just, you know, he just, erm, I think Kate, I think maybe Kate said to him ‘Is everything alright’ and he said ‘Fine’, I think, you know.  I mean, she was, I think I remember her saying to him, you know, ‘Is everything okay’, but that was nothing out of the ordinary.  But, no, I can’t think, he just said, you know, he just said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s not very well’, you know, and the inevitable joke, you know”.

4078    “Yeah, a bit of innuendo”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And then what happened next?”

Reply    “Erm, so I think the waiter has took Russell’s, because Russell’s food was there, so they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away’ and they kept that, they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away and keep that warm’.  So I’d finished mine quite quickly, probably, I think I was a fair way through or it didn’t take another four minutes or five minutes, and then I went back, erm, to find Russell sort of, you know, with, Evie was awake and I think he’d put her in the bath, because I think she had been, I think when he’d been in she had actually been sick, so he put her in the bath and he put the sheets all in the washing machine that was in the apartment. Because that’s another thing about the sheets, but we’d been doing washing all week, because you know what it’s like with kids, you end up with, so they were in the washing machine.  Erm, yeah, and then he, so I then, we were probably in there together for, I don’t know how long, five minutes of whatever, and then he went back to finish off the rest of, erm, well finish the rest of the meal”.

4078    “And what can you remember after that?”

Reply    “Erm, well Evie was still up, so I was just with Evie in the room and I think it was getting quite and Russell had sort of said ‘I’ll go and finish my meal and then I’ll come back’.  So the next thing I can sort of really remember is thinking ‘Oh I wonder why he’s not’, you know, I think I was thinking ‘Oh he’s got chatting, he’s not gonna’, you know, ‘he’s not gonna come back’, blah, blah, sort of thinking along those lines.  So I don’t know whether it was the first time I’d looked out of the window to check, but I know it was the first time I thought, because I think it was odd, I looked out of the window to check, to see if I could see them still there, and that’s when the only person I could see still at the table was, erm, Dianne and everybody else seemed to have, seemed to have gone.  Which I thought was a bit odd, because I thought even if Russell would have come back, you know, I wouldn’t have expected everybody else to, to  have left at, you know, left at that point, so.  So, I mean, that’s the first time I thought ‘Oh’, you know, ‘What’s happened’, because I couldn’t, you know, I could see them actually sitting in the, sitting in the restaurant. But I don’t know how long that is from, but I think it must have been a fair while from, because I was actually thinking ‘Oh he should be back by now’, sort of actually, you know, to actually look out of the window”.

4078    “And what happened after that?”

Reply    “Erm, I think that’s when I went back to the roadside, I sort of looked out of the roadside door.  I think I heard some shouting, erm, so I actually went to sort of put my head out the roadside door.  And I think it was Rachael that I saw first because she had run back I think to check that Grace was obviously okay.  And then I think Rachael said, you know, she told me what had, you know she said ‘Oh Madeleine’s gone’ or, you know, something along those lines.  And that’s, it was almost straightaway as she said that I sort of had that, this person sort of came into my head at that”.

4078    “It was that quick was it after you?”

Reply    “It was almost, yeah, I was sort of like, oh, it just sort of seemed a bit, the connection made, you know, I thought ‘Oh that person was a bit odd’, he sort of seemed a bit, a bit odd.  But I think at that point I was obviously, I think I actually might have wondered, wondered and, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Well I’m sure it couldn’t have been’, but it did come that immediate into my mind”.

4078    “So what happened from then?”

Reply    “Erm, well I think I was in a bit of a, I mean, obviously, erm, the next thing I can remember is seeing Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s flat, say sort of along the, sort of it’s, I’ll try and describe how it is, but as you come into the flats there’s sort of a passageway and there’s flats above so there’s a roof and there’s a passageway, it’s really badly described, but they came running along there and they were shouting ‘Madeleine’ and they were like looking in the stairwell and what have you.  And Fi started running upstairs and that’s when I ran to Fi and said what I thought, you know, I said ‘I think I’ve seen somebody’.  I didn’t want to say to Kate at that point, which might sound odd now, you know, ‘Oh why wouldn’t you say straight away to Kate’, but, you know, the thought of telling the mother of a child that you might have seen being carried away is, it’s too horrible to even say.  So I just said to Fi, erm, you know, ‘I think I might have seen somebody a bit odd when I came back to do one of the checks’.  And I don’t know whether she, I mean, she was just sort of like, I don’t know whether she took it in properly, but, erm, and then they just carried on, carried on the searching.  They were sort of running around, I mean, I just stayed, erm, me and Rachael just stayed with, in our own, but we were sort of out in the alley, in the sort of stairwell outside our rooms, and we were sort of staying with the kids at that point, so we weren’t actually involved in any physical running around, searching”.

4078    “Did you stay sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, well Evie was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she was still awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday her but sort of just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move.  Rachael, because Grace was asleep, she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what was happening.  But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.

4078    “Who else did you speak to?”

Reply    “I’m trying to think of the order, it was sort of like, it was Rachael first, then it was Fi and I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.

4078    “But you told the Police when they came?”

Reply    “Yeah, when they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go and talk to the, the PJ”.

4078    “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”

Reply    “No, they didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them where I saw it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here again, brought me back in the middle of the night from, erm, erm, from doing the sketch, so this was like the second, the night after, so this was quite late, it was like three o’clock in the morning, erm, after coming, well about three o’clock in the morning after coming back from trying to do the egg with hair sketch, I said to him then.  I said ‘Can I show you where I saw this person’, because the Press had all gone by that stage and the rest of the day there’d been obviously quite a lot of Press there, but they’d all gone.  So I actually took him then and said, you know, ‘This is where, this is where I saw him’, but at that time in the night all the, all the, you know, I, I honestly can’t remember what I, you know, exactly what I said, but, but I just said I’d seen somebody and they just sort of wrote it down and that was, that was it really”.

4078    “Just to comment on the egg with hair sketch and I know what you are referring to because I think you have mentioned it to me before, but because of the lack of software they produced this image of”.

Reply    “Yeah, they couldn’t do a face”.

4078    “It was a blank face, wasn’t it?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “With hair on?”

Reply    “With just a bit of”.

4078    “And you refer to that as the egg with hair?”

Reply    “That’s the egg with hair, yeah, sorry”.

4078    “Well I knew what it was but I thought somebody later on listening to this wouldn’t”.

Reply    “Yeah.  No, so that’s”.

4078    “Right.  How are you doing?”

Reply    “No, I’m alright”.

4078    “Are we carrying on?”

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Do you want a break?”

Reply    “No, I’m fine, yeah, no”.

4078    “Do you want to go back over anything again?”

Reply    “Erm, I don’t think so, because, I mean, to be honest, that part of the evening, between, erm, I can’t really, but I can remember seeing some of the Nannies, the only other thing I can remember probably before I spoke to the Police is some of the, I think when they realised she was missing, MARK WARNER sort of got everybody searching and I can remember some of the Nannies coming to the door and they took my number, my phone number, my mobile number and said ‘If we hear anything we’ll give you, we’ll let you know’ and that was three of the Nannies.  And Evie was still up at that time because I can remember them sort of, you know, saying ‘Oh hi Evie’, blah, blah, blah.  Erm, and I’m saying to them, you know, I was in a complete state at that point and saying ‘Oh I think I’ve something’ and them just saying ‘Oh, don’t worry’ or whatever, but, but I don’t, I can’t remember what time of night that is, but that might have been before the Police came as well or just after the Police, but they’re the only other real people I can remember talking to”.

4078    “Okay.  Did you go to bed at all that night to get some sleep?”

Reply    “Not until, it was probably about, I think about half four’ish, yeah, we tried to, tried to go to bed, I think purely because we knew in the morning we’d be asked for statements, so it was like (inaudible) sleep at all but it was like try and, try and get some rest to function in the morning”.

4078    “What about Russell (inaudible)?”

Reply    “Well him and Matt they were doing the, they were, I think they were sort of searching, I don’t know where they searched, but they, they were actually sort of running around actually looking farther afield, so didn’t really see them much at all.  I think that they did come back and as I say I can’t remember when they came back but I remember them coming back and then they went off again.  And then I think they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ.  And that was the first time I’d ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry’s apartment through the whole week, I hadn’t, it might seem like, but we hadn’t really been into their apartment before”.

4078    “Sorry, was that on the night that Madeleine had disappeared?”

Reply    “That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah”.

4078    “Okay.  Well tell me about that part then, how did you come to go into Gerry and Kate’s apartment?”

Reply    “Well when the GNR people came, so the first lot of Police, the local Police came, erm, I spoke to them and I think that was through the translator, which was, I think she’s called Sylvie, she’s the Head of Housekeeping or something, she was doing the translating at that point.  So I’d spoken to the GNR Police and then when the PJ came, they came to get me to talk to them to say, to say what, what I’d seen.  And then I can remember the same GNR person saying to me later on in the night ‘Oh have you spoken to the PJ’ and I had by that stage, so”.

4078    “So when you went into Gerry and Kate’s apartment who else was there?”

Reply    “Erm, I think there was Russ, I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator.  I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table.  And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.

4078    “And how was Gerry at that point?”

Reply    “Oh he was just, well obviously, obviously distraught.  And I think it was quite hard for me to be saying at that, you know, looking in his face and to be explaining what I’d seen, at that point was quite hard because, you know, Gerry was obviously standing there, I don’t know whether, and you sort of think ‘Oh God, here’s me, if I’d tried to stop them this wouldn’t have happened’ sort of thing.  So I think I did feel sort of a bit obviously guilty at that stage even though I didn’t know whether it was anything, but obviously you think ‘Oh bloody hell, what if I’, not stopped it happened potentially”.

4078    “And what was Gerry’s reaction to what you said?”

Reply    “Well I don’t even know whether he took it in, I mean, he was just, he was, you know, obviously just standing there looking absolutely horrified, so”.

4078    “And where was Kate?”

Reply    “I don’t know at that point, she wasn’t, she wasn’t in the, she wasn’t there.  I don’t know whether, I think they had taken the twins out of the room by that stage, so I don’t know whether she was up in Dave and Fi’s room”.

4078    “Did you make any observations about, erm, did you go into the room where the children had been sleeping in Kate and Gerry’s?”

Reply    “No, no, I just literally went into the first bit, so here I think the PJ guy was sitting on a, the table was there, so I just literally sort of went into there and then out again”.

4078    “So you can’t comment on the positioning, the lighting or anything within the children’s room?”

Reply    “No, no, I didn’t, I’ve never been in that room at all”.

4078    “Okay.  When was the next time you saw Kate?”

Reply    “The next morning when we were being picked up by the PJ to be taken into, for the, for questioning.  They had gone up into, erm, Dave and Fi, well decamped up to Dave and Fi’s room.  There was lots of people running about and it was almost like, you know, I’ll just, not keep out of the way, but, you know, it was almost like, we didn’t feel we could, not we didn’t feel we could go up there, but it was almost like, you know, I don’t know how to put it into words, but, you know, you just sort of, I don’t know how to say this, it almost sounds like we were keeping out of the way. which is not what I’m saying at all, but, you know, they were so distraught, it was how do you talk to somebody like that, especially because we don’t know them that well, so they’re closest to Dave and Fi, so we almost like left Dave and Fi, you know, to cope with the emotional side of it, I suppose, is the best way of putting it.  And, again, you think I would be going ‘Oh I’ve seen somebody, I’ve seen somebody’, but I’ve told the PJ, you know, and the thought of standing there and talking to Kate about what I’ve seen is just too horrible to, you know, think about at that stage.  So, you know, that’s, that’s why I hadn’t talked directly to them at that stage”.

4078    “And when was the first time you did talk directly to them about that?”

Reply    “Erm, well Gerry was there when I was, so, I mean, I knew he knew from that.  I don’t, the first time, I think apart from, so we got picked up in the morning and taken to the Police Station and then they were all waiting, because I think my interview was the longest that day, so they were all there when I came out of my interview, so that was the next time, erm, I, I saw them, but, I mean, I don’t think we actually talked specifically about the person I saw at that point”.

4078    “Can you remember what Kate’s reaction was when you, well I am assuming now that somebody else would have given her the information?”

Reply    “Yeah, erm”.

4078    “Did you ever have a reaction from Kate and Gerry about what you had seen and how you felt about what you had seen?”

Reply    “Not a, I mean, we hardly saw, in those first few days we hardly saw them at all really, you know, because they were so, they were busy obviously with the Press and with everything else, so I can’t actually remember a specific time that, I think it was, it was actually a few days later that we actually sat down and sort of I actually told them directly what I’d seen.  I think you, you know, you assume they know and I think at that stage I was still trying to convince myself that what I had seen hadn’t, didn’t have the significance which I think it did now, you know, and I think, I think that was sort of almost, I was hoping, you know, still hoping it didn’t have a significance”.

4078    “So you were kind of swept up in events after that I should imagine?”

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “You were taken for interviews and you mentioned this surveillance thing, how long after?”
Reply    “Oh that was a long time”.

4078    “Did you have to go back to Portugal?”

Reply    “No, no, it wasn’t that, it wasn’t that long after, that was more than a week or so after, after all of this.  I think, just going back a bit, over again, this is something, I think when I realised the true significance of what I’d seen as well was almost like a couple of days afterwards when, erm, erm, I was talking to Fi about the pyjamas, because again it seems madness now why I hadn’t asked Kate and Gerry before this what the pyjamas were like, but it’s all sort of rha rha, you know, so I didn’t know what, what Madeleine’s pyjamas were before this.  And I’d actually read in a paper that they were white, it was in the Telegraph, I think it was the day afterwards Dianne had bought a Telegraph paper and in there it was saying she was wearing plain white pyjamas, so I think when I read that I almost thought ‘Oh maybe I have got it wrong’, you know, because I’d, out of everything, I thought ‘Oh they weren’t just plain white’, I thought they had got some sort of thing on it.  So I think it might have actually been the next morning, which would probably be the Saturday morning, I think I said something to, about oh, to Fi ‘Oh what were the pyjamas like’ and she actually described the pyjamas and she sort of said ‘Oh no that is what they were like’.  And that was, I think that was almost the moment when I couldn’t convince myself anymore that it wasn’t that, you know.  And then that’s, again, it’s sort of sounds, in hindsight, it all sounds like a long period of time, but I think that was when I thought ‘No, that was definitely’, you know, when she described what they, it was almost like ‘Well that’s exactly what I have described to’, you know, ‘to the Police the day after’”.

4078    “So in your own mind you couldn’t quite talk yourself out of it”.

Reply    “No, that was then and, I mean, and Fi said she could see the, you know, the horror on my face as I sort of realised that, it was sort of then, that was like ‘Well, no, I can’t convince myself anymore that it wasn’t that because this is’.  I mean, I think I was fairly certain anyway, but that was, I couldn’t convince myself then that it wasn’t”.

4078    “So the Friday was taken up with the Police basically?”

Reply    “Yeah, we were there, yeah, quite late and then I think we came back and the second lot went, so Russell and Fi and Dianne went I think when we got back”.

4078    “And you said that Kate and Gerry’s time was pretty much taken up with the Police and with the Press and all the events that?”

Reply    “Yeah, we hardly, we hardly saw them at all.  I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie or something, but, you know, and they were obviously so distraught, I mean, Kate was just crying, it wasn’t like, it wasn’t for a chat, you know, it was just sort of a, so there was, you know, it wasn’t the time, at that point it wasn’t the time when I felt like I could turn round and say ‘Oh what pyjamas was she wearing then’, I know that sounds ridiculous now, but”.

4078    “It didn’t feel appropriate?”

Reply    “It didn’t feel appropriate at the time that I saw her to, to ask that, you know, ask that question”.

4078    “How long did you end up staying in Portugal for?”

Reply    “It was two weeks”.

4078    “So you were due back on, you were due to have flown back on the Saturday, the fifth?”

Reply    “The Saturday, yeah, and we flew back on, well the Thursday, it was actually two weeks from the day, from the third, so, whatever”.

4078    “About the seventeenth?”

Reply    “Yeah, about the seventeenth, yeah”.

4078    “Right.  And can you summarise what you did then, between the third and the seventeenth?”

Reply    “Yeah, I mean, it’s a bit like groundhog day really.  There was the interview on the day after and then, I can’t think it was that night they came back about two, well about half one, to pick me up again to go back to do the sketch, so I think that was the night of the fourth or it could have been the fifth, but I think it was the night of the fourth.  And then, erm, we did, I think I was re-interviewed again a week afterwards, actually on the Thursday a week afterwards, erm, and that was a long one, that was the one that sort of went into the middle of the night, so that was, yeah, that was the Thursday after that.  And then, I can’t remember exactly what day the surveillance was, but then there was the, the surveillance when, erm, they took me round the back of the van for the surveillance day and I think that was probably, maybe the Tuesday or the Monday of the week before we went back”.

4078    “Okay.  And can you just go on to tell me a bit more about that surveillance?”

Reply    “Yeah, erm, well I was actually talking to, I think it was the, it was some of the people that Kate and Gerry brought in, I was actually talking to them about what had happened at that point.  And Bob SMALL rang, erm, rang me on my phone and sort of said, well he scared the living daylights out of me, because rather than saying ‘The Portuguese Police want to talk to you’, or you know, ‘I want to pick you up to see the Portuguese Police’, he said ‘I need to pick you up and take you to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even Russell’ and all this, so it was sort of a bit and because he’d said Spanish Police, I thought there was some sort of a strange conspiracy going on, so it was like, oh, but, I mean, he just got”.

4078    “Got it wrong”.

Reply    “He just got mixed up.  But that made me even more suspicious because it was like, so I think at that point, I think I actually spoke to Stewart then, because I thought, I didn’t even know who Bob SMALL was at that point, so it was like, you know, and that, we were obviously worried about the Press and everything at that point, we thought it could be anybody, you know, trying to ring, and at that point I thought it could even be the person I saw ringing.  So, erm, we, erm, so, yeah, and I did tell Russell where I was going, because I thought ‘I’m not just going and getting in a car with somebody who is taking me to see the Spanish Police’.  So Russell, we walked, so I arranged to meet Bob SMALL in a car park at half seven or something at night or whatever it was, so Russell and I walked up to, erm, to meet Bob SMALL and, by chance, erm, we walked up, we’d missed the throng of Press that were at the top of the road, we actually walked up by Robert MURAT’s house and he came down in his car, in his van at that point, stopped, and he knew Russ, he’d met Russell earlier in the week, so he actually jumped out to say ‘Hi’ to Russell and he was showing us, erm, things in the back of his car as to what he was doing with the, erm, because they’d set up a stop where people could come and give their own evidence”.

4078    “Yeah, I can remember that”.

Reply    “So he’d actually jumped out and I’d never, I’d never, I hadn’t met him at this point, so I didn’t really know who he was and I wasn’t really taking it in because I was worried sick I was about to be abducted by the people”.

4078    “By the Spanish Police?”

Reply    “And taken to the Spanish Police, so I was a bit sort of like, you know.  Erm, and so we stopped to talk, that was probably a couple of minutes, and he was trying to show us all this stuff, but I was, at that point, I was thinking ‘Oh shut-up I need to go and meet Bob SMALL’”.

4078    “Do you remember his car?”

Reply    “It was the green, it was the green, I think it’s a green PASSAT, he was in a green, it’s the one that had been used for the, erm, post, the what’s it, you know, the anonymous information post where people could, because that’s what he was showing us, he was actually showing.  And I remember thinking at the time ‘He’s very keen to show us’, you know, ‘show us what he was doing’, but, you know, we thought ‘Oh great’, but.  So we then carried on and I met Bob SMALL and Russell wrote down the number plate of the car just in case I was taken away.  And, erm, then Bob drove me up to where, erm, the rest of the team were to do the surveillance.  Erm, so I went off in the back of this like refrigerated, well it was pretending to be a refrigerated, erm, van and took it round to the point on the road and obviously, in hindsight now, I realise they were probably calling Robert MURAT to try and get him to walk across, across the top of the road so that, you know, I could see.  But it was a bit odd because there was a car, where we were parked there was a car that moved just at that point that he appeared and then two other people walked by, so I didn’t really, but I didn’t even recognise it as the person I’d been talking to five minutes before, well, you know, half an hour before, so.  Erm, and then, erm, then went, I think because it has gone a bit wrong because this car had been there and then tried to set it up elsewhere, but again I couldn’t really see, I couldn’t really see that well and, you know, it didn’t look, it didn’t jog, jog any memories”.

4078    “Now you are left with that mental image in your head about the man carrying the child”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “And you said, you described his hair quite well.  Having seen MURAT then and obviously in the papers since, could you link the two of those?”

Reply    “I don’t think so.  I mean, I don’t, phew, I don’t, I don’t think it, no, there doesn’t, there’s no, but then the person I see in the paper doesn’t really look like my recollection of the person I met on the way to meet Bob SMALL.  It’s really annoying because normally I would have probably taken more notice but I was so worried about what I was going to do, because I didn’t know at this point at all, I didn’t really take any notice, but I think it was too short and I remember it being, being long into the neck and not so.  Again, I don’t really, when I saw Robert MURAT outside his house he looked quite little to me, but then when you see him on the telly he seems quite bit, so I can’t, again, I don’t think the build, the build was right, I don’t”.

4078    “So you don’t feel, in your heart of hearts”.

Reply    “No”.

4078    “You don’t feel it was the same person?”

Reply    “No, I don’t, no”.

4078    “Okay.  So we have gone through the events of Thursday the third and you have gone through quite chronologically what happened there and we have moved on and very briefly covered what you did the remaining period of your time at Portugal”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “I think, unless there is anything you want to say at this point, it is probably a good time for a break”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “So that I can go back through my notes and ask, you know, questions that we haven’t already covered”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “You can reflect on what we have talked about, think if there is anything else that comes to mind”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “And then we will take it from there”.

Reply    “Okay”.

4078    “Is that alright?”

Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine”.

4078    “Is there anything else you want to say at this point?”

Reply    “No”.

4078    “Okay.  It is nine minutes past three”.

SIGNATURE (Sgd)___________________________________

SM J TANNER 08.04.

Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview V

RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No

Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 35

Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing

Date of Interview: 08.04.08 Officer producing exhibit

Time Commenced: 16.29 hours

Time Concluded: 17.25 hours Duration of Interview: 56 minutes

Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos: SVF/110

Other Persons Present None

Tape counter times Person speaking Text

4078    “Right it’s sixteen twenty nine and it’s the afternoon of Tuesday the eighth of April in the year two thousand and eight. This I think is our fifth interview and I’m DC Sophie FERGUSON from the Major Crime Unit and you are?”

Reply    “I’m Jane TANNER.”

4078    “Thank you Jane. We’ll carry on, well I say from where we left off, we won’t, we’ll go over some things that I want to just clarify with you.”

Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “Firstly, the (inaudible) label should be attached to your plan that you’ve drawn which we refer to now as JT one, so can I just ask you to sign that please there. And whist we’re talking about plans, this is a copy of exhibit reference DM two, that refers to whoever it is that’s drawn it, it’s their initials. Now we spoke about where you were, sorry where Gerry and Gez were when you saw them.”

Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “If you just take a moment to get your bearings on that.” 

Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “So let’s see, if I get you to bear with me.”

Reply    “They were somewhere, I think they were somewhere in this area here and I think more to my side of the road than the other side of the road but, so somewhere sort of here-ish.”

4078    “Okay. And the man that was carrying the child you saw him…”

Reply    “Sort of about here.”

4078    “When you first saw him?”

Reply    “Yeah sort of was about here and I was probably here-ish.”

4078    “Yeah.”

Reply    “Do you want me to write JT no these?”

4078    “Please yeah.”

Reply    “G and G.”

4078    “And can you just do the same on this one as to which one of those you think is Gerry and which is Gez.”

Reply    “Err I think that’s G there, I think I thought Gez was, Gez was in the road and Gerry was more, sorry my writing’s scruffy, sorry.”

4078    “That’s fine, yeah. Is there anything else? I think that’s it isn’t it, I think that’s the only relevant parts. Can you think of anything else?”

Reply    “No I don’t think so.”

4078    “Okay. So Gerry and Gez, as far as you can say, were near to where it says ‘gate’ on that building?”

Reply    “Yeah but I think sort of somewhere between the gate and the alley, and the alley way, sort of within that area.”

4078    “Yeah.”

Reply    “I can’t remember exactly, but it is more, more in that sort of, between the gate and the alley way.”

4078    “Okay. I might have to use this again later on but, right, so that’s the first thing I needed to do. While we’re talking about the man with the child and seeing Gerry and Gez we mentioned the street lighting.”

Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “How much of a bearing do you think the street lighting had on your perception of colours?”

Reply    “I don’t know, I’ve often thought quite a bit, purely because the colours seem quite horrible in terms of, I say the trousers are horrible, they didn’t, they were quite a nasty err yeah they weren’t a nice colour trousers. So err but I don’t know, I mean I think it was, I’d have been, I was thinking in there I was trying to remember again what you know how dark it was or how you know and it was, I really can’t remember, but twilight definitely, it’d had twilighted to dark and err as I say with the pink part of the pyjamas I’ve always wondered whether that was a little girl, is it, are you going to plant into your head the pink pyjamas. It was the bottom bit of them that gives me the most thought in my own head that it was Madeleine. So I don’t know, I feel, I thought I saw pink pyjamas and I thought I could see colours but I don’t know, it was fairly orange so I don’t know.”

4078    “Okay, so you think it was pink but you accept that it may not have been, the colour may have been distorted or it might have been such the power of suggestion I suppose.”

Reply    “That could have been that for me because the pyjamas I really tried to, it was in the interview the next day when they really pushed me you know I think you call it cognitive interview or whatever, really pushed me to get an idea of you know more details about the person and it was then that you know sort of the description of the pyjamas was more in my head than I’d initial, it was mainly the feet as an initial thing.”

4078    “Yeah.”

Reply    “But err so I don’t know, I may, that is the one I don’t know maybe that was power of suggestion but I thought I saw a pattern on the bottom.”

4078    “Yeah but then if that’s soon after the time.”

Reply    “With, with a turn up, and the turn up I mean I can’t stress this enough, that is the bit that makes me think so much that it is the same pyjamas.”

4078    “I’m going to go through with you in a minute your description from your first statement…”

Reply    “Right yeah.”

4078    “And see if you’re still happy with, you know…”

Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine.”

4078    “Because you said earlier you think that would be your best description.”

Reply    “No, definitely, yeah.”

4078    “Right. The, I think we asked, I did touch on if you heard anything when you saw the man walking along with the child and when you’d seem Gerry and Gez.”

Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “And in those few minutes there that passed, or probably a few seconds even, and asked if you heard anything. Specifically, did you hear any car doors?”

Reply    “Not that I can, not that I can remember.”

4078    “Because I think you said to me earlier that you can’t remember hearing anything else.”

Reply    “No there’s nothing that, there was nothing that, because I think if I had heard something, there was nothing that’s triggered me to think oh what was that noise.”

4078    “No.”

Reply    “So no, I didn’t.”

4078    “Okay. The, your proximity to passing the room where Madeleine was sleeping.”

Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “And the fact that you, she was on the ground floor and you walked, you must have walked past her room three, three times I think we’ve…”

Reply    “You don’t actually walk past their bit of the room because err have you got any pictures just to sort of show?”

4078    “Is that good enough or not?”

Reply    “Err…”

4078    “I’ve got some pictures here actually yes, photographs.”

Reply    “That’s, this is Madeleine’s, is that Madeleine’s room?”

4078    “Yes I think so.”

Reply    “Yeah, err I don’t think they’re any use. No, because when you walk round the top of the road you sort of walk round here so you pass, so this is a car park and you’ve got another wall probably three, three cars distance from there which is the road, which is the main road, its hard to describe, err so you walk round here and along this bit of road here so that’s, that’s, that bit there is a shutter, as it says.”

4078    “Mm.”

Reply    “So you walk past here but within this space here it’s this car park and I think there was room for at least two cars, if not, there must have been because I can remember when the dogs were there. There was two of the dog handling cars.”

4078    “Right.”

Reply    “In this space. So you walk past here and there’s a wall here, there’s another wall like that.”

4078    “Yeah.”

Reply    “At this area, and where I go into, when I went into my apartment I go sort of down here and then walk across this car park but its, its back here.”

4078    “Right.”

Reply    “So you don’t actually walk directly past that bit at all.”

4078    “Right, so my understanding was wrong because I was thinking you’d be walking right out here.”

Reply    “No, no not at all.”

4078    “So there’s this sort of, barriers between their apartment and where you’re walking.”

Reply    “There’s a big car park here.”

4078    “Right.”

Reply    “And this car park is in this space, which I think is actually bigger than it shows on here. There’s err I’m trying to think if there’s any footage you might have seen on the TV but there’s, you know, there was at least, there was at least room for two big cars which had the dogs, dog handling people in it.”

4078    “Okay.”

Reply    “And there’s another wall here as you walk along and then I would come in here and there’d be, you sort of, the way you go in, I actually go in, this is the hard to describe bit, there was Kate and Gerry’s apartment, Matt and Rachael’s, there’s another apartment and there’s a stairwell that sort of was in front of our door.”

4078    “Yeah.”

Reply    “And I actually went that way round the stairwell to get to our door because the door’s that way so you never, I wouldn’t, you know, just don’t get a view of that, that window particularly because you’re right…”

4078    “So you’d have to go out of your way to go back to that one?”

Reply    “I’d have to go all the way in, round my bit and then all the way…”

4078    “Back.”

Reply    “Along a little passageway to get back to there.”

4078    “Right, presumably that’s why Gerry, well you can’t answer for him, but why Gerry and Kate left their other door open because it was more accessible to the open that way to check them.”

Reply    “Err yeah I mean they could get round this way but they would have to come in that way then come back so it was a lot, it was a lot quicker for…”

4078    “And I think, I can’t remember whether we covered this earlier, did you check anybody else’s children throughout your holiday?”

Reply    “No, I never went into another apartment, I listened err earlier in the week, I’d had sort of after I’d been I’d listen outside this window and the other window but I never, I never actually went into another apartment.”

4078    “Okay. So on your journeys that evening, on the Thursday evening when you walked past there to go and check your children, A, you had no intention of specifically going…”

Reply    “No I didn’t go to there at all, no.”

4078    “And then, did you notice anything different about the…”

Reply    “No, no I didn’t, I, you couldn’t, you can’t hardly see it you have to, I think it’s actually quite a lower level, I think where the road is, is actually higher to where the apartments are as well if I remember rightly so you’ve sort of got that wall there but you’re stood a bit higher up as well, so.”

4078    “Right.”

Reply    “And if it’s just no, I don’t think there’s any lighting down this bit, there’s actually a roof, if I remember rightly, again our bit there’s a roof sort of the floor above actually comes out like that so it’s actually quite dark as well.”

4078    “Right.”

Reply    “In that bit there so…”

4078    “So had the, had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn’t have noticed…”

Reply    “I wouldn’t have noticed, no.”

4078    “Unless you’d specifically think (inaudible).”

Reply    “If I’d specifically gone to listen.”

4078    “Yeah.”

Reply    “I would’ve seen it but because Gerry had just checked I didn’t you know, there was no, to go in specifically.”

4078    “Okay, thank you, that’s clarified that for me at least anyway.”

Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Right, the points that are left then are obviously the outstanding questions from the Portuguese, which I’m going to cover first before I go on to read the descriptions from your statements.”

Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Well as soon as I can get my pieces of paper in order. Okay as I say the majority of these questions have been covered so these were little added sequence, I’m just going to ask the ones that I know have been left outstanding.”

Reply    “Yeah that’s fine.”

4078    “When you, ah, when you saw Gerry and Gez…”

Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “I know we’ve covered that they were up to your right and you were going to acknowledge them but they were so intently involved in their company that…”

Reply    “Yes.”

4078    “In such, in such, they were absorbed in their conversation.”

Reply    “Deep conversation.”

4078    “So you didn’t acknowledge them in the end, at what distance from them were you when you passed?”

Reply    “Yeah, I don’t know I think, I mean again it’s hard because I’ve spoken to Gerry and he thinks it’s further away but I think they were sort of, I’m trying to…”

4078    “You need wheels on that don’t you.”

Reply    “I mean I think I sort of walked past, do you know how wide the pavement was, I walked past, and I think they were sort of, I think sort of almost, I mean it’s ridiculous they didn’t see me but they were sort of almost where, they were very, they were close enough for me to say, to have try and say you know think I could say hello.”

4078    “Without having to raise your voice?”

Reply    “Yeah, otherwise everything, you know, so I mean even if I was starting from the other side of that, I’m trying to think how big the path was, but yeah I was walking up the path and they were, I think they were very…”

4078    “Yeah.”

Reply    “Very, quite close.”

4078    “So within a couple of metres?”

Reply    “A couple of metres, yeah two, yeah, two, three metres I think.”

4078    “And you said already that you thought Gerry had his back to you…”

Reply    “Yeah I think…”

4078    “As far as you can remember?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “And Gez may have been facing you but you can’t really remember.”

Reply    “I can’t remember which, I’m trying to remember, because he obviously had the pram I’m trying to remember which way the pram was facing but I, no I can’t, no.”

4078    “Okay.”

Reply    “Again, I almost think I can remember it pointing down the road but if he was going back to his apartment it would have been pointing up the road so I don’t know, but.”

4078    “Your mind’s trying to make sense of what you even know.”

Reply    “Yeah, no, yeah so I don’t know.”

4078    “And you, obviously you can’t remember whether or not Gez saw you?”

Reply    “No. As I say I don’t think they did see because as I went to acknowledge them and they, they didn’t sort of say hello back or anything.”

4078    “Yeah. I think I asked you the distance, the time it took to get from the Tapas to your apartment, which I think you said about a minute and a half.”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah a minute and a half or two minutes I don’t know.”

4078    “And would that have been the length of time it took you on that occasion when you passed Gerry and Gez and saw the man? Would that have been about a minute and a half to get there?”

Reply    “Err yeah I would say, I mean I was walking fairly sharpish as I said so yeah.”

4078    “And what sort of length of time would it have taken you to get back after you’d done your check?”

Reply    “Err about the same, you know I didn’t dawdle back or stop to talk to anyone.”

4078    “You didn’t skid down the hill or anything?”

Reply    “No I didn’t, so, no it was uphill, so.”

4078    “One of the questions here is why didn’t you, we kind of already have covered this, why didn’t you warn the MCCANN’S immediately about the man you saw, assuming that because you didn’t see the relevance of it at that point?”

Reply    “Well I thought Gerry knew because he was there and, well I didn’t want to tell Kate within sort of ten minutes of Madeleine being missing because it just didn’t seem the right thing to say to her to say oh I’ve just seen somebody walking off with potentially somebody err and then after that I hardly, as I say I thought Gerry, Gerry was there when I was talking to the PJ so he would have known from that and after that I hardly saw them, or I never saw them in a state when I felt I could you know raise it so to speak.”

4078    “I understand from what I’ve seen in the press that Gerry and Kate would go running, or Kate would go running definitely.”

Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “And after Madeleine’s disappearance did you see them running at all?”

Reply    “I saw them go, yeah it was quite a few days afterwards they did go, yeah I did see them, I think I saw them coming back or, yeah. I think they were just wanting to let off steam and to be honest (inaudible).”

4078    “In the days prior to Madeleine’s disappearance did you check on your children and what were the arrangements? Well we’ve covered that, sorry I didn’t mean to read that question. During your stay at the Ocean Club apartment did you ever leave your doors or windows open?”

Reply    “Err not as far as, not, not as far as I know. I’m fairly, I can’t say definitely we didn’t forget to close the patio door one time when we went out but we didn’t knowingly leave any, leave any doors or windows open.”

4078    “And you already said when you’d left the girls there you made a point of making sure it was all…”
 Reply    “We made a point and it was definitely a point of being deadlocked.”

 4078    “And the shutters were always down in their room?”
 Reply    “No I don’t think we touched the shutters the whole time we were there.”

 4078    “Okay. Can I ask the telephone questions before we go to what you say in your other statements okay”.

 Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.
 4078    “Right.  Now you may or may not want your phone at this point”.
 Reply    “I don’t know if (inaudible), turned it on just in case”.

 4078    “I’ll read the number out to you anyway and see if it makes any sense to you, the number is 917453319 and it’s”.
 Reply    “And it sounds like one of the Policeman’s that I was given, so I’ll just check up, I’ve still got one of the Police numbers in here certainly, or it could be, wait a sec, 969174092 was it”?

 4078    “No”.
 Reply    “No, that’s the one”.

 4078    “It ends in 319”.
 Reply    “319 erm, what’s the name of the Consulate guy that’s 964244697 I know”.

 4078    “It is a Portuguese number”.
 Reply    “Yeah.  No the only one I’ve got is the Police, just check (inaudible)”.

 4078    “But it’s a number that I think you rang and text her that twenty five to eleven on the evening of the fourth, so that would have been the Friday evening”.
 Reply    “Right.  Texted erm did (inaudible) only thing I can think is, did Dave and Fi have a Spanish (inaudible), Portuguese mobile (inaudible) I don’t know”.

 4078    “We’ll perhaps come to that one”.
 Reply    “Yeah, no I can’t think what it’d be”.

 4078    “The (inaudible), the user of this telephone number 01271 870915”?
 Reply    “That’s my mum”.

 4078    “Your mum and what’s her name”?
 Reply    “Marion VANN”.

 4078    “And the question is, why did you ring her on the fourth”?
 Reply    “To tell her what was happening”.

 4078    “Next number is 01392”?
 Reply    “That’s a Exeter number”.

 4078    “426898”?
 Reply    “4269, oh I think that might be, is that a pre school over there”.

 4078    “That would sound about right”.
 Reply    “Yeah I think it would be a, don’t know if I’ve got the number on here any more because erm she’s gone to school now but erm the only per, I can if it’s, you know I think it must be erm Stoke (inaudible), I can only think that it’s a pre, pre school number, I don’t know if that makes sense but”.

 4078    “And that was rang on the second of May, do you remember ringing them from Portugal”?
 Reply    “Oh yes it was to say, cos I hadn’t actually told them, yes it would be Stoke Hill Pre School cos erm, cos we’d been off, she’d been off the week before because she’d been in Hospital, I hadn’t actually told them we were going on holiday that week, so I was ringing to say that she wouldn’t be in that week as well”.

4078    “Next number’s a mobile number and it starts with 44 because they do when they’re abroad don’t they”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “But it would normally be 07771 925891”?
 Reply    “Erm could you say it again sorry 0”?

4078    “07771”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “925891”?
 Reply    “I think that’s my sister (inaudible)”.

4078    “Katy VANN”?
 Reply    “Katy MASON, 815602 no, erm, that number rings a bell but (inaudible).  Can you tell me when that was, just so it might help me to”

4078    “Yes erm twenty seven minutes past nine on the second of May, twenty seven minutes past seven on the second of May in the evening”.
 Reply    “So that would be on the Wednesday, is that a text or a”?

4078    “Yes it was a text yes”.
 Reply    “What was the last three numbers again sorry”?

4078    “891, have a look under, under your mum’s listing”.
 Reply    “Right.  Yeah mum mob”.
 4078    “Yeah that’s on there”.
 Reply    “(Inaudible), I don’t know what that would, that would probably just be say we were having a nice time or whatever”.

4078    “Right, this one, it’s a mobile number 4, +44 7941 022462 and you texted them on the fourth, which was about half past ten, twenty to eleven time”?
 Reply    “Sorry these numbers are going out of my head, what’s the last three numbers again”?

4078    “I know it’s difficult when you’re just listening to them, it ends in 2462”?
 Reply    “2462, I’m trying to think who, erm Lisa who’s a friend from Exeter and she’d just seen me on the telly, so she just sent me a text saying yeah (inaudible)”.

4078    “Next one it’s erm +44 7946 then lots of 6’s in the next bit, so it’s 79461 66665 and that was somebody that you erm received a text from on the second of May”?
 Reply    “Lots of 6’s”.

4078    “Do you know a Maxine”?
 Reply    “Oh again, that’s a friend, that’s just a friend from Exeter erm yeah can’t remember what her second name is but yeah it’s just a friend that I (inaudible) next to, give you her address, she lives near the motorway”.

4078    “I don’t want the addresses actually”.
 Reply    “That’s really helpful isn’t it”?

4078    “(Inaudible) near the motorway in Exeter yes”.
 Reply    “But yeah I can show you the, yeah that’s”.

4078    “Yes”.
 Reply    “She’s just a”.

4078    “And there are, there are just three more, this is mobile +, +44 7958 704510”?
 Reply    “510”.

4078    “It’s just somebody that you texted at eight twenty one in the morning on the second of May and they texted you back at five past ten the same day in the morning”.
 Reply    “Sorry, the last three numbers again I (inaudible)”.

4078    “510”.
 Reply    “510, there’s two people that I think, sorry that one’s 513 (inaudible)”.

4078    “Have a look under your J section”.
 Reply    “J mmm, my sister’s called Julie, she’s in here, I think she text me erm, who else called J”.

4078    “Do you know a John, John CLAXMAN”?
 Reply    “Ah yes, that’s erm, the reason that’s Christine is his wife and he, so I can show you her number, I haven’t actually got his number in, haven’t actually got his number in here but I’ve got Christine, I’ve actually called her PAXMAN because I thought her name was PAXMAN”.

4078    “That’s on there yes, yes”.
 Reply    “Oh does that say, oh right okay yeah sorry”.

4078    “Ends in 510 yes”?
 Reply    “Yeah it does yeah, you know it’s cos it’s under Christine”.

4078    “Do you remember why you were in touch with him that day”?
 Reply    “Erm well I think it would be Christine, I think she’s obviously, erm she’s just a friend from Exeter again, what day was that”?

4078    “That was on the second”?
 Reply    “Erm, can only think that she would have text me to say do you want to come somewhere with us, she’s got kids the same age as me, do you want to come somewhere with the kids and I would have text back saying no, sorry we’re on holiday, I can’t think, I can’t

4078    “Yes I know”.
 Reply    “No, that’s the only thing I can think”.

4078    “Right, and this one it’s a 01324 number, it’s 01234 7723125”?
 Reply    “1234, 01234, trying to think what”.

4078    “Is it Bedford”?
 Reply    “If it’s Bedford, that’s probably erm Fi or somebody borrowing my phone to ring her dad, erm don’t think I know anybody in Bedford who I did”.

4078    “Would make sense”.
 Reply    “It could be Diane or, it’s probably Diane borrowing my phone to ring, ring that”.

4078    “Okay and the last number then, is 07949 731844”?
 Reply    “Yeah this is the one I think it would be, this is erm, this is Charlotte, my friend in Exeter who was actually out in Portugal with us when we were there, but I think I rang her, she went home on the Saturday and she hadn’t taken her mobile out with her, cos I’d (inaudible) texted her, that day we were supposed to go, it was her husband’s birthday, I must have, I’ve still got the text on here that she, we were supposed to go to their apartment for a barbecue at lunch time, so I text her in the morning and said, (inaudible) text (inaudible), there you go, I text her in the morning and said that, so you see what time that is and but she didn’t answer so, cos she hadn’t got her mobile phone”.

4078    “No”.
 Reply    “With her, so I rang her when she was home, that’s (inaudible) I want to talk to her then”.

4078    “But we’ve got that record that you texted her, I think you actually texted her the evening before as well”.
 Reply    “That was to say do we need to erm bring, I think she was saying, come up for the afternoon, I think it was something along the lines of, do we need to bring food or something along those lines cos we were going for, for lunch”.

4078    “Yes”.
 Reply    “Cos it was Jim’s birthday”.

4078    “Okay.  That’s the end of the telephone questions”.
 Reply    “(Inaudible), that first one”.
 4078    “Er yes, the first one that was a Portuguese number 917453319”.
 Reply    “And what date was that on”?

4078    “On the, twenty five to eleven at night on the fourth”?
 Reply    “I can only think that was, cos I think Russell and everybody were still at the Police Station then, so I can only think they rang and rang them back or something, I can’t, I haven’t got any idea of that one so”.

4078    “Okay, I’ll check later on whether they want me to sort of”.
 Reply    “Mmm”.
 4078    “To be more thorough with that or not”.
 Reply    “Okay”.

4078    “But.  We’ve Gerry and Kate’s questions still to do, but before we move on to those, I’m just going to go through then your (inaudible) your statement”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “From the Officers statements, the Portuguese.  Specifically the description”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.
 4078    “And also a comment that Matthew, he said Matthew made, all will become clear”.
 Reply    “Right okay”.

4078    “See there’s a statement on the fourth of May, there’s one on the tenth of May, this is the fourth of May statement, which is the one that has a description in, bear with me just one, one last part.  This part about Matthew”.
 Reply    “Mmm”.

4078    “I need to check the other statement you made as well, there’s a mention when we were speaking earlier that Matthew had made a comment about, oh sorry, I’ve found it, I’ve found it now.  It depends on which way you read this as to what it means, now I need to clarify with you way it was intended”?
 Reply    “Right”.

4078    “I’ll read the two paragraphs that are relevant, ‘After about fifteen to twenty minutes, her husband Russell O’BRIEN and Matthew OLDFIELD left to see the children, because all three (inaudible) was agitated and crying Russell O’BRIEN stayed in the bedroom, however Matthew OLDFIELD went to check on his children and Gerald McCANN and Kate (inaudible).  According to what you said, he saw the twins but he could not see Madeleine Beth McCANN.  ‘As he did not hear any noise, he assumed that all was well and went back to the Restaurant’.  Now do you remember if Matthew made a comment when he came back to the Tapas Bar about being only able to see the twins”?
 Reply    “No, this was afterwards, this was after we discussed it that night, so yeah, no it wasn’t then, he hadn’t made it then, it was after she’d gone missing”.

4078    “Right, so this statement reflects the comments that have been made the following day, where you’ve understood what Matthew’s involvement was”?
 Reply    “Er either the following day or that night after”.

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “You’d, once, once we know so probably when we all got back to the apartment after we’d been, he’d been, they’d all been searching, it was probably then that (inaudible)”.

4078    “Right, so it’s not (inaudible) reason that Matthew’s come back to the table and said only, I’ve seen the twins but I couldn’t see Madeleine”?
 Reply    “No, no, no”.

4078    “Okay.  Clear that one up again yes and then we’ll move on to your description right.  This is from page eight to nine of your original, you know your first statement that you did”.
 Reply    “Mmm”.

4078    “The, the man that you saw was an olive skinned brunette male and looking between thirty five to forty years old, slim build, about 1.7 metres tall, he had very dark, thick short hair, which went down to the back of his neck, as seen from behind, he was wearing beige/golden coloured linen type trousers with a duffel coat but not too thick.  The shoes were black in colour and classic in style, he was walking in a rush, he was carrying a child lying on both of his arms in front of his chest, by the way he was dressed, I thought he was a tourist because he was too wrapped up”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “How does that seem to you now”?
 Reply    “Yeah seems, only I’m not sure I said duffel coat, don’t think I would have said, I think the duffel, I think I’d said it was gathered, it may be a duffel coat but sort of the blousy-ness, it was all gathered round his bottom for the want of a better, but yeah I think, yeah the shoes I mean I think a lot was made of the shoes but that was almost like a, that was an add on at the end, that was to, I think this might be what the shoes were like, it wasn’t a definite, the shoes were like this, this is when I was pushed to add more and more information to it, it was more, that’s what the shoes were like, so I didn’t study the shoes and I think that I took that more from the point it wasn’t tra, it didn’t seem to be trainer type shoes, that’s, but erm, but yeah the rest is fairly, the golden was the mustard, because I was trying to point out colours in the room to him cos I couldn’t, in the translation we couldn’t get over what sort of colour”.

4078    “It’s a difficult colour anyway isn’t it”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “So many different words for the, people say different”.
 Reply    “Yeah sort of, that’s that sort of the, that sort of yellowy tinge to it, rather than gold, I wouldn’t say it was, it wasn’t so gold, it’s too strong a word for it”.
 4078    “And then just to clarify the description that you gave of the child, in relation to the child who appeared to be asleep, she could only see the legs, she looked bigger than a baby, her feet were bare and she was wearing a light coloured, possibly a white or light pink in colour cotton type pyjamas, she’s unsure but seems to remember how you seen some design on the pyjamas, which could have been flowers but you’re not sure”?
 Reply    “Mmm, you see I said earlier, I didn’t think the turn up bit had gone into this description but I do remember very clearly, the Translator, during my second interview, when I said in the second interview about the turn ups, she sort of said yes I can remember you, can remember you saying that cos erm”.

4078    “So it was said, it just might not have been in it”?
 Reply    “It was definitely, it was definitely said and I said and the Translator, I can remember sort of, she said, oh yes I can remember you doing these sort of hand movements so, I can’t prove that but”.

4078    “She didn’t say you did the lobster thing then”?
 Reply    “Afraid not”.

4078    “No”.
 Reply    “So yeah it did worry me that that wasn’t in the”.

4078    “Right, and at this point, remember this is on the fourth of May at eleven thirty hours, I’m not hundred per cent certain that that’s in the morning or at night time from what you’ve said now, I assume it was in the morning yes”?
 Reply    “Morning yeah, the second one could have been in the night time”.

4078    “Yes.  So as in relation to these details, she is unaware you were unaware what Madeleine Beth McCANN was wearing at the moment she disappeared because she’s not spoken to anyone about this subject.  Now in relation to the male she had seen, she’d only spoken with Gerald McCANN but not in detail and with the Police”?
 Reply    “Well I’d spoken with other people within the group but hadn’t spoken to Kate about it earlier and Gerry I’d only spoken to cos he was there when I was giving the”.

4078    “Yes.  I think the point they’re trying to make is that you had no knowledge of what Madeleine was supposed to have been wearing when you gave that description”?
 Reply    “No I think, no because when, I wasn’t there at the table when Kate gave a you know, I think Kate gave everybody else, when she came, you know when everyone was looking for her, they had a description of what to look for but I wasn’t, I was in the room at that point so no I definitely didn’t know what she’d, and I’d never seen her in pyjamas, I’ve never seen Madeleine in pyjamas at home and or anywhere so”.

4078    “I’m just double checking the second statement to see if there’s any further description”.
 Reply    “I think again by then I did actually know what they were, I’d seen a picture of them in the papers, so it’s”.

4078    “Can’t find the specific part in there but I think, obviously it’s covered in the first one anyway, so it’s not particularly relevant to any (inaudible) time, going back to the second one there.  Before we move on to then Gerry and Kate’s questions that they want to ask, is there anything else that you want to say in relation to everything we’ve discussed so far”?
 Reply    “Erm I think the only part which, I mean it’s more relevant to everybody else than to me, it’s probably some of the Robert MURAT bits, in terms of erm Rachel, Fi and Russ and into, erm it was sort of how that came about and how they came to give their statements on that, I don’t know whether it’s a good time to talk about that”?

4078    “Yes, yes go on”.
 Reply    “Erm well I think it’s when I’d done the, well I did the surveillance and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards.  So Rachel came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”.

4078    “Right”.
 Reply    “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.

4078    “No”.
 Reply    “But I just thought it was”.

4078    “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”.
 Reply    “Yeah I think, I just want to make it clear that from my own point of view, they gave that information as soon as it came onto Sky and asked and you know they were sort of like, oh let’s ring Bob SMALL to see if it’s relevant at this point and at that point, none of us knew that he wasn’t there on you know, that he didn’t say that he was there on the night and”.

4078    “Yes”.
 Reply    “And I, I mean I didn’t myself see him on the night at all but somebody did say to me, who translated for you, was it the lady or the man and it, it was the lady, I said, Sylvie and I hadn’t seen a man but again I don’t know whether that has any relevance that there was somebody else there translating, you know during the night so”.

4078    “Okay, that’s certainly a point worth bringing up when we interview the other people that have seen him there on the night”.
 Reply    “Yeah exactly, I’m not trying to, cos I feel you know, if he’s not involved, the poor chap’s had as much crap as us really, I feel very, you know, he’s not involved but I do think it’s important that”.

4078    “Get to the truth of the matter”?
 Reply    “Get to the truth of the matter and the truth is you know they, when they asked me to ring Bob SMALL to make these statements, we didn’t even know that he’d erm, hadn’t, hadn’t said he was there on the night and they didn’t know that I’d done the surveillance”.

4078    “No”.
 Reply    “Because I took it seriously”.

4078    “So there’s no collaboration between you all”?
 Reply    “No”.
 4078    “(Inaudible) completely independent other than that”?
 Reply    “No, I hadn’t even, I mean when I got back, I didn’t even tell Russell what I’d done cos I took very seriously what the Police said in terms of not you know, not telling anybody”.

4078    “Yes”.
 Reply    “So I just thought it was important to say that really”.

4078    “Yes”.
 Reply    “(Inaudible), it’s not trying to build more of a case against him at all, it’s just my involvement in that side”.

4078    “Truth to what happened that night”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “It’s, is how they’ve said it, it’s not something you concocted up between you”.
 Reply    “No, it was”.

4078    “And come to a conclusion that that must have been him”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “That’s genuinely was something at the time”?
 Reply    “Yeah sort of at the time yeah”.

4078    “Okay.  Is there anything else that you need to speak about”?
 Reply    “Erm no I don’t think so, don’t think anything else is”.

4078    “What about your personal opinions Jane”?
 Reply    “Yeah erm, well obviously I, I mean I was almost gonna say this at the very, very end of anything but I just, I’d just really like to say to the Portuguese Police you know, I think there’s been a lot said but from a, you know we’re not a bunch of swingers that went out there for a swinging holiday, I can’t think of anything to be worse to be honest but yeah, we didn’t go out there on a swingers holiday to dump our kids in the kids club while we got pissed and shagged each other you know, that’s not what we did, there’s, there’s one week of the year, the other fifty one weeks of the year, with the kids all the time.  In terms of our family, Russell’s, you know every spare moment’s with the kids, Russell doesn’t go off playing golf or go to the football or you know, there’s nothing wrong with that at the weekend, it’s spent with the kids and I just think you know, they’ve obviously got this idea of us and it’s just completely, completely wrong in terms of the way we are and what you know, our motives for being on holiday there and I think just you know, they’ve got to, I think you saw my reaction earlier that you know, I’m telling the truth, you know there’s Kate and Gerry are telling the truth, there’s no way they are involved in any shape or form, you know we saw their reaction on the night, we saw their reaction afterwards, we see their reaction now, they’re not involved and the thing is, there’s somebody out there you know, Madeleine if she’s dead or alive whatever you know, maybe it is too late to find her but there’s somebody out there that’s done this and it’s not Kate and Gerry, it’s not us, you know they can do it again and that is the, you know they’re laughing their socks off, they’ve just got away with this scot free and you know, and I think it’s, the thing is, they are there, then it’s not us and that person is out there and you know, could do it again and as I say it might be, we obviously hope not but it could be too late for Madeleine but a lot of other kids out there that might not be too late for and it’s just and to sit and see, and I know, I can quite understand why that time and effort has to be put into looking down that route and but you know, I can’t say any more but it’s not, well it’s not us, it’s not Kate and Gerry and it’s something happened which to Madeleine that night and none of us are involved and you know, I just don’t know what else we can do to make them believe us and I think that’s the you know, and I think that’s the you know, I think that, and I don’t think there is anything else we could do to believe us but you know, we’re not (inaudible), we were normal people that made a really stupid decision because we were lulled into a false sense of security from previous holidays where baby listening was offered so I don’t know”.

4078    “It’s clear that you”.
 Reply    “And we’ve got to live with that, I’m off again”.

4078    “Yes okay, I clearly know you feel a huge sense of frustration as well that you’ve done everything you can, you’ve said (inaudible)”.
 Reply    “Well yeah, yeah”.

4078    “And you, I suppose what you’re hoping now, is that the focus of the enquiry’s going to shift away from you as a group”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And Gerry and Kate and”.
 Reply    “Yeah and that just yeah, I mean it’s just you know, it’s inhumane to, and I understand all their secrecy laws and they can’t, but you know all this stuff about us has been leaked from somewhere you know, I mean I’m thinking today I’ve said things and I can just see the, if this stuff is leaked you know, Jane intimidated by Gerry you know, Jane too nice and was worried about being late, so she was saying nice, that she made up the story about Madeleine being (inaudible), I can just see it, you know you can see how people are thinking and it’s just bollocks, absolute I just don’t know, you know it’s not at all like that, we’re just normal people that went on holiday, we’re having a great holiday, made a stupid decision you know and”.

4078    “You made that decision based on how things were at that time”?
 Reply    “Yeah exact, yeah I know, I know you can rationalise that in your head as much as you can but you know, but and now to make that worse, you know it’s always like and I can see that that should have almost been done straight away, that we were scrutinised and, and the fact that I’m not being believed but have they looked into my past, have they asked family, have they asked people I work with, have they asked friends if this is something I do all the time, am I some sort of fruit cake that makes stuff up and you know, they’ve only got to do that and they’ll find out that I’m not you know, I’m not the least likely person to, might not be Madeleine, I cannot say that it was Madeleine but you know, I saw somebody and I’ve no evidence to say it wasn’t so”.

4078    “But you have a sinking feeling inside that it was”?
 Reply    “Yeah and I, yeah and I just think you know, they just and you know at the end of the day, this person is still out there, somebody did this and it wasn’t Kate and Gerry and it wasn’t any of us you know, and it just, that is the worse thing, that person is out there, could do it again, he’s absolutely you know, they must be laughing their socks off, well not, you know they, so I think that’s you know, that’s all we can, and I think it’s just that frustration and as I say, I mean I can’t make them believe us and they might still not believe us but you know, like I say, so I’m just begging really that they believe us, I think it’s a”.

4078    “So, that’s fine, are you okay for me to go on to Kate and Gerry’s questions”?
 Reply    “Yeah of course yeah”.

4078    “And I said that after that we’ll finish this and I’ll just go and see”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Might be a short space of time where we’re discussing what’s been said and clarifying and checking the time lines, see if there’s anything else we need to clarify before you go”.
 Reply    “Yeah that’s fine yeah, that’s fine”.

4078    “To let you go, you are free to go any point obviously.  Right, I’m just going to read these, some of them will have been covered”.
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “I’ll try and miss out the ones that obviously have been covered.  We’ve covered how long you’ve known Kate and Gerry and what kind of relationship there is between you, we’ve already covered that.  Have you ever visited Kate and Gerry at their home address”?
 Reply    “Yes a couple of times, we went to Madeleine’s birthday the year before, so it would be her third birth, yeah her third birthday and I think we’ve probably been there maybe one other time”.

4078    “And I’m assuming then from what you’ve just said that their children were present when you were there”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And how many times have you been, say about twice”?
 Reply    “Yeah it could be more but yeah I think only, only one or twice, two or three times but yeah”.

4078    “And just clarify, you’ve not been on holiday with them before”?
 Reply    “No”.

4078    “So you can’t comment on how they, what child care arrangements they had previously”?
 Reply    “No”.

4078    “And how often would you meet Gerald and Kate during the holiday time period, where you’ve mentioned that, because you saw Kate every morning at tennis”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “And then you’d often see both of them during the evening, socially”?
 Reply    “Yeah from about five o’clock onwards yeah”.

4078    “And the children as well, we’ve touched on that, you didn’t see Madeleine very often, just in the evenings, perhaps at the play area”?
 Reply    “Yeah, or maybe when I’d dropped Ella off at the erm, kids club, I tend to drop Evie cos that was near the tennis, so no it probably was, yeah it was probably was end of the evening”.

4078    “And was that the same as Sean and Amelie as well”?
 Reply    “I saw them more because they were in the same bit as Evie and I tended to drop Evie off so yeah but, but yeah not, not a lot”.
 4078    “Have you ever felt that you had a reason to become somehow concerned about the children”?
 Reply    “No”.

4078    “And the last time you saw Madeleine was on the afternoon you (inaudible)”?
 Reply    “Yeah we were playing tennis yeah”.

4078    “And you last saw Kate and Gerry with, it says when did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday May the third, we’ve covered that haven’t we”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “(Inaudible), Tapas we’ve covered, Kate and Gerry were already there we’ve covered and they were talking to another couple and you spoke to them, what was their behaviour like”?
 Reply    “Just completely normal, they were laughing and joking”.

4078    “And then we’ve covered who left the table during the meal and why, we’ve covered the fact that Gerry went, how long he was absent for.  What did Gerald say when he came back”?
 Reply    “Erm well I wasn’t actually there when he came back”.

4078    “No you weren’t that’s right”.
 Reply    “Cos he got back before, so he was back there when I got back”.
 4078    “So when you got back then, after having seen him and Jez, was Gerald behaving or acting differently”?
 Reply    “No not that I noticed no”.

4078    “Did you see Matthew leaving the table during the meal, yes you did”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “For how long has he gone for”?
 Reply    “It’s probably ten minutes all in probably, matter of five or ten minutes yeah”.

4078    “And you covered what he said when he got back, it was basically to tell you that Russell had stayed with Evie”?
 Reply    “Mmm yeah”.

4078    “Was he behaving or acting differently when he returned”?
 Reply    “No”.

4078    “Did you see Russell leaving the table during the meal”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “How long has he gone for, he stayed gone didn’t he”?
 Reply    “Yeah, ‘til I got back to him yeah”.

4078    “And he obviously wasn’t behaving differently, or acting differently”?
 Reply    “No”.

4078    “These obviously are general questions to ask all of them”?
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah, no, no”.

4078    “Did you see Kate leaving the table during the meal”?
 Reply    “No cos I was back in the room at that point”.

4078    “And when did you next see Kate after that”?
 Reply    “When she was running along the front of our apartment, sort of looking under stairwell with Fi”.

4078    “And how did she look”?
 Reply    “Very, very agitated”.

4078    “What was her behaviour like”?
 Reply    “Well she was obviously very worried and shouting Madeleine, Madeleine and she, she was frantically searching for the best way to put it”.

4078    “Then the next question lastly, you went to the McCANN’s apartment which you’ve already covered”.
 Reply    “Mmm”.

4078    “And you didn’t go into the bedroom where the children were asleep”.
 Reply    “No”.

4078    “So you can’t describe that and so you wouldn’t have noticed anything unusual about them because you didn’t see them”?
 Reply    “No”.
 4078    “What did you do next, where you stayed looking after your children, did you take part in subsequent searches for, no not that night”.
 Reply    “No”.

4078    “Did you take part in any of the searches”?
 Reply    “No, I was going to a few days afterwards but erm, Russell went and said one of us had to stay for the kids, so Russell, Russell went off with them”.

4078    “I don’t know if you can answer this, on realising that Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react”?
 Reply    “Erm well I could hear her screaming from my apartment, so that’s all I could hear, sort of shouts and screams”.

4078    “And the same question in relation to Gerald”?
 Reply    “Erm well again I could just hear the commotion, I don’t know where it was coming from (inaudible)”.

4078    “But you said when you saw Gerry at sort of three o’clock in the morning he was just”?
 Reply    “Ah he was just like standing there shaking, so yeah”.

4078    “What did you think about their behaviour considering that Madeleine had gone missing”?
 Reply    “It was totally normal because they were just distraught yeah and just, yeah well normal for what you’d expect if they’d just found their daughter wasn’t there”.

4078    “And the following question we’ve covered really, it’s what did you do between ten thirty pm in the evening and ten am of the following day, well you were up ‘til about four thirty and you had a bit of sleep”?
 Reply    “Yeah it’s four thirty, probably a bit later, five, four thirty five am and (inaudible)”.

4078    “And who did you see, well it’s limited to, within range of your apartment wasn’t it, because that’s where you were”?
 Reply    “Yeah (inaudible) but Matt, I think Matt and Rachael actually came and stayed in our, I think they actually came and stayed in our apartment that night as well, so they were in there with Grace, so yeah I saw them all that night so”.

4078    “And the Police you saw as well”?
 Reply    “Oh that night, I saw the GNR Police and the PJ Police and Sylvie”.

4078    “Yes”?
 Reply    “Yeah, then that’s”.

4078    “The next question was who did you talk to, is that all the people you’ve just mentioned”?
 Reply    “Plus the three nannies, they came to the door as well, as in spoke to them”.

4078    “And Fiona you spoke to didn’t you”?
 Reply    “Yeah and I’m sure I saw Dave at some point as well, yeah I think I saw everybody, kept sort of coming backwards and forwards a bit”.

4078    “Yes.  When did you leave Portugal, well we’ve covered that you said on the seventeenth”?
 Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “How many times did you meet Kate and Gerry”?
 Reply    “After that is that (inaudible)”?

4078    “I think so, let’s assume it means afterwards”?
 Reply    “Erm I didn’t actually see them until they got back in the UK, I’m trying to think, the first time was, we obviously had conversation, phone conversations and texts but I don’t think I saw them until, I think it might have been beginning of November before we actually, no it must have been before then, I know I saw them when I did the, I saw Gerry when I did the sketch, you know when the sketch came out, I saw Gerry then but I didn’t see Kate, I think the first time I saw Kate was when I went up to do the (inaudible), so that was November time, actually to see them face to face”.

4078    “Yes.  I can tell you feel guilty about everything that’s gone on”.
 Reply    “Mmm”.

4078    “How did that affect how you felt when you saw them, were you worried about seeing them”?
 Reply    “Erm”.

4078    “Or had you just had, you know I presume you’ve had contact with them anyway”?
 Reply    “I’d had plenty of, we’d spoke to them, yeah I mean obviously however much you can rationalise this in your head, you know you look at, not forget but you look at what the pain they’re going through and you think well the same for everybody really and you think you know, you could potentially have stopped this, so it’s very, it is yeah, it’s always, whenever we do see them, it’s always quite hard”.

4078    “Okay”.
 Reply    “Sorry”.

4078    “Now do you think they were showing normal behaviour for parents who have lost a child”?
 Reply    “Yeah I do because I think and knowing their personalities, especially Gerry, I mean Gerry had to throw himself completely into you know, he used the campaign and everything else as his coping mechanism to get him through on a day to day basis and some people might think that’s not normal but knowing Gerry and you know he is a very, he’s a very decisive, very, he always has, you know he makes a decision and then that’s the right you know, the way to go, so no I think they were, and Kate’s obviously just a mess, so I think it’s completely, knowing them, I think it’s completely how I would expect them to, to react”.

4078    “Okay.  During the time you were on holiday, did you notice situation where Kate and Gerry were talking to any unknown person”?
 Reply    “Erm no, the only people, Gerry’s very, I mean Gerry’s the sort of person that gets somewhere and he knows everybody straight away, so he’s very sociable, so I think he’d probably know a lot more people than the rest of the group through the, through his tennis as well, so there were people that I saw him talking to that I probably hadn’t spoken to, but they’re all other guests or they might have been guests say, nobody, no nobody that I thought, oh who’s that, they were all people you’d expect to him to be talking to”.

4078    “People whose faces look familiar to you”?
 Reply    “Yeah, yeah he might have known them yeah, they were familiar faces”.

4078    “Did you see Kate or Gerry inside any car during the holiday period”?
 Reply    “No, apart from when they got dropped off the first day by (inaudible)”.

4078    “Okay and what about there subsequently, by the Police or whatever”?
 Reply    “Erm well I’ve came back in a car with Gerry from the Police Station after the second interviews, I saw him in the car erm but no I didn’t see him in any, we didn’t have access to any other cars during our, the time, those two weeks that we were there afterwards”.

4078    “Is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth”?
 Reply    “No not really only what I’ve said so far really”.
 4078    “Okay.  I think that’s all the questions that I’ve been asked to put to you, (inaudible), I’m going to go and reconvene with everyone else that’s been monitoring”.
 Reply    “Right okay”.

4078    “See if there is anything that we’ve missed between us, or if there’s anything they’ve thought of that we haven’t thought of”.
 Reply    “Mmm mmm”.

4078    “I take it there’s nothing else you want to say at the moment”?
 Reply    “Mmm no I don’t think so, no I can’t think, can’t think of anything”.

4078    “Okay, in that case time is now seventeen twenty five and we’ll finish this interview”

Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview VI

RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No

Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 7

Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing

Date of Interview: 08.04.08 Officer producing exhibit

Time Commenced: 1742 hours

Time Concluded: 1753 hours Duration of Interview: 11 minutes

Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos: SVF/112

Other Persons Present None

Tape counter times Person speaking Text

4078    “Okay it’s now seventeen forty two on the evening of the eighth of April, two thousand and eight, I’m DC FERGUSON from Major Crime Unit and you are

Reply    “Jane TANNER”.

4078    “Lovely, we’ve done I think five interviews now today and the purpose of this interview which should be the final interview, circumstances permitting, it’s just to ask a couple of sort of relatively remote questions.  When you relieved Russell”.

Reply    “That’s got another head line”.

4078    “Do you remember which, do you remember which door Russell left your apartment by when he left after you’d taken over the care of Evie”?

Reply    “I don’t but I would, I’m fairly sure it was the road side one, I would have thought it would be the, the road side one cos we didn’t really use, I don’t know, I would say the road side one but I can’t remember”.

4078    “That would be your guess”?

Reply    “That would be my guess yeah”.

4078    “And also and you can’t be certain of this because can’t be certain of that and did you lock the doors behind him”?

Reply    “Erm well you couldn’t, I doubt I dead locked it cos the door’s, if you just shut the doors they locked anyway, erm so nobody could have got, if, if it was the door, if it was the road side door, if you shut it, it locked but you could further dead lock it, erm so no I doubt it, I think I would have just shut it, I don’t think I would have dead locked it”.

4078    “But you would have needed the key to have got back in anyway”?

Reply    “Yes”.

4078    “Or you would have had to have let him in”?

Reply    “I would have had to let him in, or he would need a key to get back in yeah”.

4078    “Unless he went out of the patio, sorry the pool side door”?

Reply    “Yeah and I think if he had gone out of there, I would have locked it and probably remembered, so I would say, I, I can’t say for sure but I would have said it was more likely, I don’t know, I honestly, I can’t (inaudible), I’m speculating, I don’t know”.

4078    “Okay, okay, do you remember when you told Russell that man carrying the child”?

Reply    “It was when he’d, he came back from one of the searches, I don’t know, I can’t remember how soon after it was they came back or anything but it was straight him and, can’t remember if it was him and Dave or him and Matt but I remember two of them came back to the apartment and it was, it was then, straight away”.

4078    “And when you told Russell, did you tell him with a matter of urgency, as a matter of urgency, with an urgency to the way you were telling him, or was it just an oh by the way I saw this”?

Reply    “Oh no, it was a definite oh effing blah you know, I think it was a definite, oh I think I’ve seen something you know, sort of a yeah”.

4078    “Yes, and do you remember whether that was before or after you told Fiona”?

Reply    “I think it was, no but I think it, I think it was afterwards cos I think Fiona, I think Fiona was fairly soon after I’d seen Rachael, so I would, I would say it was after Fiona but that’s I, I couldn’t say for sure but I think it was after Fiona”.

4078    “So is your guess that Fiona was the first person you told”?

Reply    “No Rachael was the first person I told”.

4078    “Right”.

Reply    “And then Fiona and then I think when Russell and Matt or Russell and Dave, whoever it was that came back, I then, then told them”.

4078    “Right.  I don’t know whether you’re going to be able to answer any, anything to do with this question, but I’ll ask it and then you can tell me whether you can answer it or not.  Do you know if Rachael rang the BBC that night, or early in the morning, or there’s some mention of an email from David PAYNE to the BBC, do you have any knowledge of that”?

Reply    “Erm I think I remember discussions about I think Gerry might have asked Dave to ring Sky, I don’t know whether it was that way, or no to email, there was some erm talk of, I can remember talk of emailing Sky, I don’t know what, where it came from and I think that was mainly Dave, and it was Dave that I don’t whether he did it or not but that was Dave cos I think at that point, I think me and Russell are more erm wary of the media and we were like oh is it the right thing to do, then I think it now because of contacting with (inaudible), I think it was the right thing to do but I know we were a bit more of sort of like um you know, calm down and in terms of Rachael, I know she has a friend who’s married to someone at the BBC so, but I don’t know whether, I can’t, I’m not sure if she actually did it, I think it was the next day, I don’t think it was during the night”.

4078    “Well we can clarify that with them”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “I need to ask, I need to do an exhibit label because we know you marked on that other map that we mentioned, I think it was DM2, this one here and you’ve marked one there where you were”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Just need to do a quick exhibit label for that before I forget and again when I do the statement after this, it will include the fact that we’ve produced these two exhibits from your interviews”.

Reply    “Okay yeah”.

4078    “It’s just Policing stuff”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Marked copy RDM2 and then there’s only one more thing after this, then we’ve done, if you could just sign there then Jane please”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “Thank you and the final thing that I need to ask you is in relation to attending Portugal for the reconstruction, what are your thoughts on that”?

Reply    “Erm it’s hard, I mean I think in an ideal world I’d be on the plane tomorrow if I thought it would help erm find, find Madeleine but some great concerns about the media and the, how the media will react to it, how that it will view it, you know will it just be a, another chance to have a dig at us, rather than actually focussing, focussing it back onto the, finding out what happened, or where Madeleine is, so I think that is a big concern.  Also it’s too late in the day, this should have been done, you know this was requested in the first couple of weeks we were there, this should have been done then, a year down the line, I would like to know exactly what hoping to gain for it because okay you might be able to see different escape routes that you think of but through you know DNA evidence or anything to back it up at this stage and it’s almost like and from totally personal level, the thought of going and sitting there and going through it, it’s just hideous, so I think I really need to understand that it has to be us that does it and why, I can understand that obviously we’re the best people to do it but you know, in terms of damage from a selfish point of view to us, other people from the media, psychologically whatever, I really need to know that there is really good reasons and that they really think there’s gonna be stuff comes out of it that can be used or you know what they are hoping to get out of it and it’s not, and if I’m being, going to my completely cynical side you know, is it, there’s not just a way to get us back to Portugal, so you know we, not that they can do whatever they want with us but you know getting us back to there so that they can slap an alguido status on us or you know, all of that sort of thing you know”.

4078    “Yes, so you have a lot of concerns about it”?

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “That’s okay, that’s alright”.

Reply    “(Inaudible) no so, no but I want, I really want it to be clear that it’s not just the”.

4078    “The sake of it yes”.

Reply    “The sake is not, no I won’t go back and I say in an ideal world I’d get on the plane tomorrow but I really need to understand that it’s worth doing and it’s not just a tick box exercise to be able to close the case or anything like that you know, cos it, I think they have to understand the affect you know that it could, the media you know, from a media point of view and a psychological point of view, the thought of walking up that road again and just going through it all, would just be hideous, so you know I think”.

4078    “Did you have the opportunity when you were still there to retrace your steps if you, if you like”?

Reply    “Erm I did on my, I say I did on my own and I did that one night with erm, erm Carlos (inaudible), but literally just, but yes I mean we, I did sort of when the media had died you know, sort of we managed to walk up a bit but the problem was, the media were all camped out there”

.

4078    “Right yes”.

Reply    “For most of the time, so you couldn’t actually go that way very much”.

4078    “What I’m driving at and I’m not here to persuade you one way or the other, but I was wondering whether it would be a useful experience for you to be able to retrace your steps, but then like you said, the media are going to be there again anyway aren’t they”?

Reply    “Yeah and it’s yeah and, but it’s almost like what, I don’t know what extra information I can give so far down the line or if I do give any extra information and retrace the steps, you know what, I suppose we might, I wouldn’t, if you know if I think oh they look more like this, is it accurate to this far down the line, you know I think that is the”.

4078    “Yes”.

Reply    “It’s almost like a what, what benefit is gonna come out of it in that way and that’s not me being, I’m not being, cos the last thing is, you know I want to do everything we can to help but we’ve got to, because of the way the case has gone, we’ve got to sit, look at it in terms of damage limitation to us and our families you know down the line and we don’t want to give the chance, (inaudible) completely new set of you know media hype”.

4078    “Not unless it’s going to produce something worthwhile”?

Reply    “Produce something worth, worthwhile and I mean I’m not a Policeman, I’m not, I don’t know what is hoping you know, what they are hoping to get, to get from it, the only thing I can see at the moment that they’re hoping to get from it, is to find a hole in our story and from our point of view, we know there isn’t one of those, or you know, that’s not gonna help find Madeleine, so I need to understand exactly what they think is gonna help find Madeleine by us going back”.

4078    “Okay”.

Reply    “Does that make sense”.

4078    “It does make sense”.

Reply    “I say it’s yeah, it’s just a, because I can see at the moment, obviously the damage to us being more than the, than the benefit to Madeleine”.

4078    “Yes, yes okay.  There’s nothing else I need to ask, is there anything else you want to say”?

Reply    “Don’t think, think I’ve already said enough”.

4078    “Okay”.

Reply    “No I don’t think so”.

4078    “Well I’m going to go away and complete the statement I mentioned to you”.

Reply    “Mmm”.

4078    “Which hopefully shouldn’t take too long and then I think we’re about done okay”?

Reply    “Okay”.

4078    “It’s now seventeen fifty three”.

Jane Tanner - Record Of Tape Recorded Interview VII

Person Interviewed: Jane TANNER Number of Pages 6

Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby Signature of Interviewing

Date of Interview: 08/04/08 Officer producing exhibit

Time Commenced: 1930 hours

Time Concluded: 1938 hours Duration of Interview: 8 minutes

Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos: SVF/114

Other Persons Present None

Tape counter times Person speaking Text

4078    “Right.  It is now nineteen thirty on the evening of April the eighth two thousand and eight.  I am DC Sophie FERGUSON from Leicestershire Major Crime Unit.  And you are?”

Reply    “Jane TANNER”.

4078    “And Jane this is our seventh interview today and the purpose of this interview is just to clarify some points in relation to a sequence of events that was drawn up, it is a timeline, in effect, of the events that happened on Thursday May the third two thousand and seven.  Firstly, I mean, I don’t know what format you may have seen this in before”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “How did this come about?”

Reply    “Erm, I can’t remember when we decided, but I think it was a couple of days afterwards, we were just, we were all coming up with different bits of what had happened when and, et cetera, and we were just worried that over time that would, you know, we would lose, we wouldn’t be able to remember what was, what happened when, so we just thought we’d put it down on paper.  I think different people had put like little bits down on bits of paper for their own memory, so we just thought we’d get together, put it all down and just, I suppose in a way, do a bit of our  own, not investigative work, but, you know, put it together and see if anything stood out to us really”.

4078    “And who did that?”

Reply    “I think it was Dave’s initial idea or I think, I don’t know whether, well I think Dave sort of said and then we borrowed a computer from the tennis coach, just so that we had something to, to write it down on.  But we all did it together, we sort of all sat, we sat together and did, did it”.

4078    “So you all agreed on things at this time?”

Reply    “Yeah, we sort of, banded stuff around as well if we thought wasn’t, until we were all agreed on”.

4078    “Were there any sticking points?”

Reply    “Phew, oh, I can’t remember now, erm, nothing major, nothing major that I can think at all, I think there was probably, you know, times, timings, there was probably ‘Oh I thought it was a bit later’ or ‘I thought it was a bit earlier’, but nothing, in terms of the actual sort of sequence of events, there was nothing that (inaudible) many times”.

4078    “What I am trying to cover is, if anybody would look at this cynically”.

Reply    “Within the group?  Oh no”.

4078    “Externally”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “If people were to view this cynically and they may argue that”.

Reply    “Yeah”.

4078    “That everyone has been pressured into conforming to stating these times and sticking to these times.  Do you know what I am driving at?”

Reply    “No, no, I mean, that wasn’t, and I think with everything that has happened since, we do think whether doing this was a bad idea, because it does like we were all getting our story straight, but it was done in completely good faith, just purely because we knew we’d forget or we were forgetting, you know, between us we were forgetting things that had happened, so we just thought it would be a help to, to put it down on paper.  And we did it and gave it to the Police, so it wasn’t something we did without, you know, to keep to ourselves, we sort of did it and then gave it to the Police straight away when we’d done it, so, no, there was no”.

4078    “So the notes, for doing it, was purely with good intention and they weren’t, as I say, you know, if you were to view it cynically, they are not a kind of aide memoir of people trying to remember?”

Reply    “No, it was purely because we thought we’d forget ourselves and we thought it would help the Police to have our collective thoughts, thoughts on it”.

4078    “The times on it, I will go through them, but they are fairly consistent with what you have said on your interviews anyway”.

Reply    “Right”.

4078    “Twenty, I don’t like saying twenty thirty, ‘Half past eight standard booking for meal at Tapas Restaurant.  Twenty five to nine Gerry and Kate arrive.  Twenty to nine Jane TANNER arrives, followed shortly by Matthew OLDFIELD and Rachael MAMPILLY.  Quarter to nine Russell arrives.  Five to nine Matthew OLDFIELD returns to check the ground floor flats and then also sees David and Fiona and Dianne’”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “’Three minutes to nine Matthew OLDFIELD listens outside all ground floor flats.  Nine o’clock Matthew OLDFIELD returns to the table.  Starters were ordered.  Five past nine Gerry McCANN returns to his flat’.  It describes how he found the door, et cetera, on that visit.  ‘Quarter past nine Jane TANNER leaves the table and sees Gerry talking to a fellow resident, the two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua da Silva Road’.  I don’t know if I am saying that properly.  You didn’t speak to Gerry as you passed.  And then as  you continued up the hill you saw a man.  Then you have got the description of the man here”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “Which is the same as the description in your first statement.  I will go through it again anyway just in case there is any discrepancies”.

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “’A man aged thirty-five to forty, one point seven metres tall with slim build, a good head of dark glossy hair with a possible flick of hair to the right’”.

Reply    “Yeah, I think that’s because I just saw a lot of, a lot of hair”.

4078    “’The hair was longer at the back, not clippered or shaven.  The central and the left side of the face were not seen.  Full length trousers, casual in material, hanging without creases, the colour was possibly a brown or mustard, they were not jeans.  A long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front possibly by a zipper, it had a gathered lower hem and was also possibly brownish in colour.  The shoes may have been semi formal brogue.  Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be ascertained.  He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable objects.  He was only carrying a child with the head against the left upper chest away from Jane TANNER and the feet to the right, i.e. cradling the child like a baby.  He appeared to be walking in a rush to get somewhere.  He was not someone Jane TANNER recognised from the week.  He was not typically dressed for a tourist.  His clothing did not seem to be of UK origin and they had rather been purchased in Portugal’”.

Reply    “Umm, yeah, not UK origin, yeah”.

4078    “And the description of the child, ‘A Caucasian child.  About the ages of three to four.  Was seen to lie motionless, limp in the man’s arms, with her sleeping or possibly drugged.  She didn’t seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night, wearing only pyjamas.  The trousers were light coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups.  The top was not seen well enough, although there was thought to be another colour involved, possibly pink.  She was not wearing shoes.  Twenty past nine Jane TANNER then returns to the restaurant by which time Gerry had also returned.  Twenty-five past nine, after the starters, Matthew OLDFIELD and’ who is ‘RJO’?”

Reply    “Russell.  Russell, it’s Russell James O’BRIEN.  So that’s Russell”.

4078    “Right.  Okay.  ‘Go back to the apartments via the car park entrance to check all the flats’.  Half past nine Russell remains in your apartment and Matthew goes on to check the other children before coming back.  ‘Twenty-five to ten Matthew returns to the restaurant table’.  Twenty to ten you return to take over Evie’s care’?”

Reply    “Umm”.

4078    “’Quarter to ten’, which you can’t comment on, ‘Russell returns to the table’.  And ‘Five to ten’, again you can’t comment on that because you were still in the apartment, ‘RMO’?”

Reply    “Rachael.  No, ‘RMO’?  Rachael, yeah”.

4078    “’RMO last time at table’?”

Reply    “Rachael OLDFIELD, yeah”.

4078    (inaudible)  And ‘Ten o’clock Kate leaves the table to check on her children’.  So, as I said, there is nothing different there to what you have already said”.

Reply    “No, and, I mean, this was done after all of our initial statements as well, so, I mean, it wasn’t sort of a get it all down on paper so we’re ready for the initial statements, it was done, I think, two or three days after that, so that was purely because we thought we were going to forget for ourselves”.

4078    “Yeah, I can understand that.  Is there anything, whilst you have been sitting in the rest room, that you have thought of that you would like to say, that we haven’t already covered?”

Reply    “Erm, no, I don’t, I don’t think so, no”.

4078    “Okay. I really don’t think there is anything more now.  I say that, but, you know, to the best of my knowledge, at the moment, I think that is the final interview, so”.

Reply    “Okay”.

4078    “It is now nineteen thirty-eight”.

Number: S747 
 
 
 Surname: TANNER
 
 Forenames: JANE MICHELLE
 
 Age: 36 Date of Birth: 
 
 Address: 
 Postcode: 
 Occupation: MOTHER
 
 Telephone No: 
 Statement Date: 08/04/2008 Number of Pages: 2
 
 
 
 I am the above named and I live at the address given to the police. 
 
 On Tuesday 8th April, 2008, between 10:00am and 10:18am I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence. 
 
 On Tuesday, 8th of April 2008, between 10:28 hours and 11:29 hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence. 
 
 On Tuesday 8th of April 2008, between 11:55 hours and 12:40 hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence. 
 
 On Tuesday 8th of April 2008, between 13:49hours and 15:09 hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence. 
 
 On Tuesday 8th of April 2008, between 16:29hours and 17:25hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence. 
 
 On Tuesday, 8th of April 2008, between 17:42 hours and 17:53 hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence. 
 
 During the interview I drew up a plan of the Tapas Bar in relation to our apartments. I mark and produce this rough plan as exhibit reference J.T.1. (Page One) 
 
 I also marked on a previously drawn plan (exhibit D.M.2) which I now produce as my exhibit marked J.T.2. Both of these exhibits have been handed to DC FERGUSON. 
 
 On Tuesday, 8th of April 2008, between 19:30 hours and 19:38 hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of my evidence. 
 
 The statement is made by myself and is true to the best of my knowledge and belief. 
 
 Signed: Jane TANNER Signature witnessed by: DC 4078 FERGUSON