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Title: Chris Butler Convo June 29th 2015
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HiDeHo
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Date Posted：01/07/2015 6:32 AMCopy HTML


Lizzy Hideho Taylor
June 29 at 1:12pm · Edited

I just spoke to Chris about the WBM issues to ask if there could be a further email about the reason the CEOP page appeared on April 30th. His response was that the email he sent to me initially was an acknowledgement of their error in the Timestamp (something to do with a 'subset') and that there really isn't anything else they can reply to.

He has become aware of the 'speculation' but basically cannot respond any further and suggested that if anyone has any queries about anything regarding the error and if they feel that there may be major implications they should contact the police and he will furnish them with any information necessary.

Lizzy Hideho Taylor's photo.
Like · Comment · 
  • Mary Maxwell Steve Marsden or Lord Miles Spencer may have it
    June 29 at 4:38pm · Like · 4
  • Heather Hopper There are many screen shots and research on this forum.You can join as a guest to see and read and post.http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/
    The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann
    What really happened to Madeleine McCann? Kate...
    JILLHAVERN.FORUMOTION.NET
    June 29 at 5:24pm · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I copied the source code html over to this page but it automatically shows the page and not the code. However, if someone can take the code of each post and convert it back to html, after removing the aimoo info there may be some original sourcecode.

    There are two pages, the Maddie page and the Home page from April 30th

    http://forum4.aimoo.com/.../html-wayback-machine-ceop...
    html wayback machine ceop april 30 - Madeleine McCann CONTROVERSY
    archive_analytics.values.server_name=wwwb-app10.us.archive.org;archive_analytics.values.server_ms=122;<​link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href=/static/css/banner-styles.css> Help find Madeleine McCa.
    FORUM4.AIMOO.COM
    June 29 at 5:40pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
  • Lord Miles Spencer Maggie - I have the source code as do a few others
    June 29 at 7:11pm · Like · 4
  • Lord Miles Spencer The source code was also sent to IM by Chris as a PDF file - if anyone wants it I am more than happy to send my email - just send a request to CEOP@addax.co.uk - u wi get it within 24 hours - I will also try and upload as a file to Lizzys forum - "subset" - what is he talking about ?
    June 29 at 7:16pm · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I had a perfectly 'normal' conversation with Chris. He was forthcoming and helpful. He felt he had been straightforward and definitive in his previous email about the error and could see nothing more to add. He didn't try to shrug me off.. The call was close to 30 mins in length.

    Why is it being suggested they are hiding something because they haven't gone into a technically detailed reason for the error?

    They are obviously confident in their error, acknowledged it and can do no more..

    I am confident in Chris Butler's explanation and give it far more credibility than the speculation they are complicit in a major cover up.

    Even more so when you keep in mind they had never heard Madeleine McCann's name before this happened.
    22 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer I have uploaded source code as a file see above and to the right of where you post, or click here 

    https://www.facebook.com/.../HiDeHoCONTROVERSYofMa.../files/
    21 hrs · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
  • Maggie Potter I wouldn't say they are part of a conspiracy. It's just strange and worth someone Independant of them to have a look. I mean really what are the odds that after 20year and billions or trillions of archives that this is the only page with that error. I...See More
    21 hrs · Like · 2
  • Cherry Beresfield Lord Miles Spencer post moved from new OP to avoid having too many OPs discussing the same topic
    Cherry Beresfield's photo.
    20 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
  • Lord Miles Spencer Emily Thorne - Mr Butler has not moved on or been sacked. I think Lizzy has spoken to him recently, see another thread - Mr Bennett did a spoof letter that looks convincing but it is a joke, included in that was a claim that Mr B had been sacked.
    17 hrs · Like · 2
  • Janine Bresnick They are backtracking once it had been pointed out that their archive would have CEOP up the creek without a paddle and expose the case for what it is! A huge coverup! Way Back Machine were not part of the coverup until last week imo.
    12 hrs · Like · 6
  • Janine Bresnick I'm sure Mr Butler was very pleasant, he needed to be. It would be even more incriminating if he refused to speak or was rude. He's doing a great back tracking job!
    12 hrs · Like · 4
  • Mary Maxwell I think so too Janine Bresnick
    12 hrs · Like · 2
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I am afraid to make judgements on Chris Butler's conversations with me, without actually knowing the content is speculation in itself.

    He couldn't have been more forthcoming and helpful and to see comments otherwise I find very disrespectful towards h    im.

    I see my concise summary of my 25 min conversation with his has, in itself, turned into some conspiracy theory and I'm disappointed with anyone who presumes there was anything 'sinister' about it.

    Not ONE person has approached me to confirm if their theories about the conversation could be valid...Take it and run with it is what I have seen.

    I am fully aware of the implications, but have full confidence that WBM have no involvement whatsoever, especially considering they have minimum knowledge of the case.

    It has opened my eyes to how 'normal' comments can be twisted into a conspiracy.
    11 hrs · Like · 4
  • Janine Bresnick No conspiracy but a very unbelievable story that a computer program designed, tried and tested over years and used in legal cases to verify times/dates, just happened to make a mistake on CEOPs webpage. And that the mistake happened to be 3 days out. And that those three days BACK not forward (so another unfortunate coincidence) makes it highly incriminating. And that the original communication from Way Back confirmed it's accuracy. Only some hours later did they change their story!
    11 hrs · Like · 3
  • Isabel Oliveira Well after checking the website as per Martin Roberts post I see that the 30th April is returning circa 3000 results for the CEOP . Most days have a maximum of circa 10-20. This for me is a clear indicator that , in that week , some technical problem occurred with the archive . 

    Also , the first reply sent by Way Back was a proforma one . Isabelle herself showed the second email received in that sense . 

    Lizzy showed the email received in that sense . 

    The WB itself has a disclaimer that their time stamps are not always accurate .

    Most importantly , to have the CEOP advertise what they wanted to hide makes no sense to me . They would have to be totally incompetent and silly so I don't see anything in this whole case but a tech glitch . A puzzling one but a glitch . No more than that .
    11 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Janine Bresnick. Chris recognised the error after I had shown him the home page...He didn't backtrack...

    As he said...he sent the first email to Isabelle in good faith but immediately corrected it after I had given him more info about the incorrect home page
    10 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
  • Chris Roberts Computers don't "glitch", all they do in their boring little lives is shunt 0s and 1s around as instructed nothing more, nothing less.
    If this April 30th thing is an erroneous result it can only occur because an instruction had changed. Thus we are to believe that it changed back again after roundly giving it to the McCanns up the rear end.
    Hmmmmmm ... let me see now.
    10 hrs · Like · 6
  • Judy Turner Not saying it isn't possible but have they been living in a remote cave for the past 8 yrs to have not heard of the world's most known missing child?
    10 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
  • Mary Maxwell Judy I agree the world knew about Madeleine the next day
    10 hrs · Like · 1
  • Isabel Oliveira I think we have to keep in perspective that we have an interest in the case . Many , many people in many countries have forgotten about this . Papers only carry this story regularly in the Uk and Portugal . The rest of the world has moved on . There's so many disaster in the world, so many tragedies involving children , the elderly , human beings and we don't remember them either . It's the world , it's been 8 years . Apart from Britain and Portugal people hardly think about this case anymore and many know nothing about it . May seem odd to us that follow this case but it's the way things are .
    10 hrs · Like · 4
  • Chris Roberts Isabel, that may be so but most of the other happenings in the world we won't be force fed BS about for 8 years. What has happened to Amaral could in effect happen to any other honest policeman and that alone raises this case above all others. It represents the collapse of the cornerstone of any civilised society, it's justice system where all you now apparently need is sufficient money to hide behind expensive lawyers.
    7 hrs · Edited · Like · 11
  • Janine Bresnick He corrected it after the error was pointed out, I don't dispute that. What I'm struggling with is, why he changed it? Why not just agree it's an error and leave it at that? Because the date is highly incriminating? Who else may have had a word with him after that post? And I'm no computer expert but those who are say that the embedded data on the time/date stamp is real. I could understand the date being late ie 3 days forward, because the trawler missed it. But to put it back 3 days?
    10 hrs · Like · 10
  • Chris Roberts Then we need to perhaps look at odds. ..Billions of files, 365 days in a year and the "glitch" occurs to incriminate the McCanns on the only file and on the last day anyone can be certain Madeleine McCann was alive. Ladbrokes would laugh at me.
    9 hrs · Like · 7
  • Chris Roberts I understand that Steve Marsden has confirmed that the Posix date ( i.e no of seconds since the "epoch" of 1/1/1970 ) is correct. If that is so, it's not an "innocent" error because it can't be.
    9 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
  • Isabel Oliveira Agree totally , re media spin and the injustice to GA, to workers and alleged suspects in PDL , Brenda and naturally that poor child .
    9 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Judy Turner I can confirm that there is a good percentage of people here in Toronto that have never heard the name of Madeleine McCann. Just recently, even a Portuguese customer had no knowledge

    We sometimes get updates, but very rarely and it hasnt     ...See More
    9 hrs · Like · 3
  • Nana Lynda Very little reporting at the time in Central America when we were out there, lots of reporting on little Caylee Anthony, including the whole court case. Only today I spoke about JonBenet to my mother here in UK, she has never heard of that little girl.
    8 hrs · Like · 3
  • Nick Fox It's not really about what Chris says - and I don't believe WB is involved in any conspiracy. It's what the computers say.
    8 hrs · Like · 6
  • Janine Bresnick Also, the fact that Chris Butler, a senior manager at Way Back, immediately and without hesitation nor checking, responded to Isabel, confirming the time/date stamp, is in itself testimony to the fact that it was not an error. If there had been previous cases of people questioning their credentials or authenticity, his reply would to have been to delay his response until he'd checked or at the very least told her that he'd check it and get back to her! So by implication of such an unequivocal and timely reply, in his mind he'd never heard of such an error.
    8 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
  • Nick Fox Still waiting for one debunker to explain how it happened. No credible answers so far.
    8 hrs · Like · 6
  • Isabel Oliveira Not me  double l and e Isabelle credits for who contacted WB x
    8 hrs · Like · 2
  • Steve Marsden I've been using the wayback machine since before 9/11. Now I check the source code of everything I look at and I've yet to see any inconsistency with the way the grabbed pages end up with a URL based on the timestamp.
    8 hrs · Edited · Like · 7
  • Chris Roberts Computers are really no different now to how they have always been. The hardware or the nuts and bolts if you prefer still does exactly the same job it did 50 years ago. Yes they're more powerful and capacious now but essentially the same... still shifting 0s and 1s about according to the instruction. 
    What HAS changed massively is the software that utilises the computer's power and a whole plethora of applications. The great thing about software is that in any given circumstance it will always have precisely the same effect. It will "instruct" the computer to perform a function and it will always produce precisely the same result. If you think it won't then you would also have to believe that revisiting the last page of a book you read to see how the printed word changed since the last time you looked. 
    The point of this mini diatribe is this. IF there is an error in the results from the Wayback machine, it can only come from a software issue. 
    Not unheard of but only fixable by fixing the software.
    Manually "correcting" the CEOP file will not prevent it happening again and that's why I do not believe the WBM "solution" to a "problem" that only confirms what so many of us already believe. Madeleine was gone long before May 3rd..
    7 hrs · Like · 5
  • Martina McCosker Agree totally Chris, computers and dogs dont lie, only humans
    7 hrs · Like · 6
  • Steve Marsden The more you take a step back from the case and review everything, logic dictates that the "abduction plan" was not something done by the seat of the pants on May 3. 200 journalists do not swarm into a sleepy little Portuguese town on the basis of a girl reported missing just before midnight and who may be found by daybreak. Yet that is exactly what happened and everyone fell for it. The reality is that such a plan required action to clean up, falsify creche records, alibi build - which obviously went awry because of the inconsistencies. It explains the weird cellphone pings and flurry of messages. It explains the swift way that Bell Pottinger had another man onsite to help the McCanns within two days. It explains why Bell Pottinger had a boss there the previous week. In short, a disappeared Madeleine earlier that week really does start to explain everything.
    7 hrs · Like · 6
  • Chris Roberts My bank card is in the name of Christophe Roberts with a missing 'r' off the end and I'm not French. The bank told me that this is due to "computer error" when in point of fact, it's a screw up by whoever typed in my details. Not hardware, not software, just "humanware" and it's exactly why a file that really couldn't exist if you believe the McCann fairy tale , did. Someone screwed up, it happens all the time.
    7 hrs · Like · 4
  • Chris Roberts Yes Steve and in the scheme of things, Madeleine really wasn't that important. I've always wondered why there was such a reaction to it.
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Steve Marsden Chris, one would think that a court injunction was filed to prevent the fallout from a very serious situation where some top Establishment figure (politician or Royal) would be implicated. Celebrities don't have that clout as we've seen with Harris and Clifford. Politicians and Royals really are proven to be untouchable. It has to involve someone of that calibre.
    7 hrs · Like · 5
  • Chris Roberts A child goes missing in circumstances easily explained by the "parents". The local police do their best to locate the child but fail for whatever reason. Logically NOTHING justifies the world and his wife of the MSM turning up and nothing justifies the involvement of the Prime Minister and his heir apparent. 
    A few days ago 30 Britons were slaughtered on a beach in Tunisia. I think the BBC and Sky sent crews over there but they're home again now. I doubt if any of the injured survivors got on the phone to David Cameron about it and it's already faded into the background.
    Prai da luz was lousy with journalists for weeks.
    6 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lord Miles Spencer Lizzy, some people believe they are hiding something because this case is chock-a-block full of cover-ups and shiftiness - can u really blame people for wanting a full technical explanation - it would surely take a few minutes to explain - INCORRECT and SUBSET don't do it for me - imo - I am prepared to be wrong

    Nor is SUBSET definitive !
    6 hrs · Edited · Like · 3
  • Chris Roberts Software is a wonderful thing. You specify it, write it and then test it to ensure it does precisely what it says on the box to specification..
    If it doesnt, you investigate the error or "Bug" and test the whole product and it's functionality again to    ...See More
    6 hrs · Edited · Like · 3
  • Chris Roberts As to the logic of why this webpage was " produced in advance " my gut feeling is that CEOP had a whistle blower but their action remained undetected until Steve Marsden came rumbling down the track.
    6 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Isabel - CEOP did not "advertise" what they wished hidden - I still believe it was a work in progress - I believe that whoever uploaded that was merely getting the page ready - waiting for the second tennis balls photo, allegedly yet to be taken, and the posters, on which, from memory, is tennis balls again - neither would be linked to until they were uploaded - I had no idea crawlers existed at that time, hell, some people didn't know they exist today and I was designing and hosting sites from 1999 - maybe subset will be explained when I read the rest of this thread - it was on the server and certainly would not have been advertised
    6 hrs · Like · 3
  • Maggie Potter 1st poster was an old pic from the camera, pinky red sort of top.

    The thing is if archived sites have been used in court then does all parties just accept that they are error free or would any prosecutor worth his weight quiz the hell out of them about errors.

    Anybody know what cases they were used in?
    6 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Steve, Do you think that this kind of response would have occurred if it was one of our top Christian celebrities, say Cliff Richard - no accusations intended
    5 hrs · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer Has there been ANY expert explanation about this subset ? Links please - ta
    5 hrs · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Chris explained to me. I thought by mentioning 'subset' someone would have some knowledge.
    2 hrs · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor My comments from a 25 minute conversation with Chris have been taken totally out of context. I know the truth of my conversation with him and it does not come close to reflecting the comments I have seen made about it. My eyes have been opened about how comments can be twisted and made to look so different.
    2 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Chris Roberts Lizzy Hideho Taylor we all know what a "subset" is but it's irrelevant in explaining how this purported "error" occurred. I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to twist any comments here and a few of us ( e.g Steve Marsden and Lord Miles Spencer ) have a certain knowledge and experience of the technical issues involved here.
    We really have to ask ourselves is April 30th significant in some way? Well your own superb research suggests that it certainly is. Then we have to consider the odds of such an "error" occuring pertinent to that date. 
    As I posted earlier, WBM's "solution" of manual correction is no solution at all because without identifying and remedying the root cause of the "error", it will certainly happen again and throw their whole raison d'etre into the garbage.
    1 hr · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Have I twisted anything Lizzy, feel free to pm me if I have
    1 hr · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer Actually, I don't think I know what a subset is Chris - remind me
    1 hr · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer As a community we have learned - the question I pose is have we learned enough ? A few people were very quick the snapshot and grab the code that we did - full marks for that BUT did we do enough ?
    1 hr · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Lord Miles Spencer, no, lol you have not taken anything I have said and twisted it. I am just talking in the general comments I have seen.

    I have no idea of the technical side so I cannot make judgements on that but I have found it totally disrespectful to Chris, who, as I have explained, spent 25 minutes, explaining all he could to me, acknowledging it is their error and offering to be as helpful as possible even if it was so important to anyone that they felt it necessary to bring the police in. 

    He made it very clear that until I called and pointed out the Home page errors that he was not fully aware of the problem and as soon as he realised there was a mistake, he admitted it and contacted Isabelle to correct his first email which, although incorrect, he said he made in good faith

    To have his comments perceived as a suggestion that he was fobbing me off....that he was making some effort to scramble to explain his first email to Isabelle, to suggest hiding something and ultimately complicit in a major coverup, and all based on MY comments as a very concise summary of our conversation has shown me how comments can be twisted to serve an agenda.

    Noone (except Chris) has any idea whatsoever about my conversation, and noone has approached me to find out.

    i am as skeptical as the rest and certainly went into this knowing the implications ...but I'm also not stupid and am more than able to make a judgement on whether its possible that someone is skirting the details. Chris certainly went above and beyond to be helpful.

    He was forthcoming with anything I asked and straightforward in taking responsibility for their error..

    .I do not know whether this reflects on there being a sinister page that was in place by CEOP, but I can assure you that my communication with Chris was not riddled with efforts to cover anything up.

    Maybe they haven't pinpointed the reason yet, and if so, why should they be obliged to tell anyone the details?

    Chris admitted to not being aware of the case before all this happened and my guess is that they don't feel the case is relevant to them. They found an error, they immediately admitted to it and have spent time trying to resolve it.

    To see suggestions they may be complicit, with nothing to base it on is out of order in my opinion and disrespectful to Chris, who took time out of his busy workday to attempt to help.
    14 mins · Like
  • HiDeHo
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Re：Chris Butler Convo June 29th 2015

Date Posted：01/07/2015 6:34 AMCopy HTML


Lizzy Hideho Taylor
June 29 at 1:12pm · Edited

I just spoke to Chris about the WBM issues to ask if there could be a further email about the reason the CEOP page appeared on April 30th. His response was that the email he sent to me initially was an acknowledgement of their error in the Timestamp (something to do with a 'subset') and that there really isn't anything else they can reply to.

He has become aware of the 'speculation' but basically cannot respond any further and suggested that if anyone has any queries about anything regarding the error and if they feel that there may be major implications they should contact the police and he will furnish them with any information necessary.

Lizzy Hideho Taylor's photo.
Like · Comment · 
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I see there are questions on Twitter, (I don't respond on Twitter) why Chris would suggest to go to the police and 'waste their time'. I think I made it clear......'if they feel that there may be major implications they should contact the police and he will furnish them with any information necessary.'

    It's up to the individual to decide if they feel it is important enough.
    June 29 at 2:07pm · Edited · Like · 3
  • Emily Thorne I thought Mr Butler had been moved on?
    June 29 at 2:10pm · Like
  • Maggie Potter Well if I had been quick enough to grab the source code I would hand it over. 

    20 year of archiving billions and billions of pages and only one page makes it into wrong folder.
    June 29 at 2:26pm · Like · 12
  • Lorraine Birks Is that a snap picture or an actual link Maggie ? I am not very good with computers but did have some snaps that night ..
    June 29 at 2:28pm · Like
  • Maggie Potter No the actual source code on the page showing 30th April archive. Some browsers let you view the code but will only show what html your comp rendered on the screen. Developers have tools allow them to grab the actual code sent out by the server.
    June 29 at 2:37pm · Like
  • Maggie Potter By time I saw the post the 30th had been removed and was defaulting to 13th may
    June 29 at 2:38pm · Like
  • Lorraine Birks I saw it still as 30th April so took a few shots .
    June 29 at 2:38pm · Like · 4
  • Maggie Potter I'm no good with names but the guy who posted about it, I think he managed to grab it and I'm not sure but think someone else did too.
    June 29 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
  • Mary Maxwell Steve Marsden or Lord Miles Spencer may have it
    June 29 at 4:38pm · Like · 4
  • Heather Hopper There are many screen shots and research on this forum.You can join as a guest to see and read and post.http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/
    The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann
    What really happened to Madeleine McCann? Kate...
    JILLHAVERN.FORUMOTION.NET
    June 29 at 5:24pm · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I copied the source code html over to this page but it automatically shows the page and not the code. However, if someone can take the code of each post and convert it back to html, after removing the aimoo info there may be some original sourcecode.

    There are two pages, the Maddie page and the Home page from April 30th

    http://forum4.aimoo.com/.../html-wayback-machine-ceop...
    html wayback machine ceop april 30 - Madeleine McCann CONTROVERSY
    archive_analytics.values.server_name=wwwb-app10.us.archive.org;archive_analytics.values.server_ms=122;<​link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href=/static/css/banner-styles.css> Help find Madeleine McCa.
    FORUM4.AIMOO.COM
    June 29 at 5:40pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
  • Lord Miles Spencer Maggie - I have the source code as do a few others
    June 29 at 7:11pm · Like · 4
  • Lord Miles Spencer The source code was also sent to IM by Chris as a PDF file - if anyone wants it I am more than happy to send my email - just send a request to CEOP@addax.co.uk - u wi get it within 24 hours - I will also try and upload as a file to Lizzys forum - "subset" - what is he talking about ?
    June 29 at 7:16pm · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I had a perfectly 'normal' conversation with Chris. He was forthcoming and helpful. He felt he had been straightforward and definitive in his previous email about the error and could see nothing more to add. He didn't try to shrug me off.. The call was close to 30 mins in length.

    Why is it being suggested they are hiding something because they haven't gone into a technically detailed reason for the error?

    They are obviously confident in their error, acknowledged it and can do no more..

    I am confident in Chris Butler's explanation and give it far more credibility than the speculation they are complicit in a major cover up.

    Even more so when you keep in mind they had never heard Madeleine McCann's name before this happened.
    22 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer I have uploaded source code as a file see above and to the right of where you post, or click here 

    https://www.facebook.com/.../HiDeHoCONTROVERSYofMa.../files/
    22 hrs · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
  • Maggie Potter I wouldn't say they are part of a conspiracy. It's just strange and worth someone Independant of them to have a look. I mean really what are the odds that after 20year and billions or trillions of archives that this is the only page with that error. I...See More
    21 hrs · Like · 2
  • Cherry Beresfield Lord Miles Spencer post moved from new OP to avoid having too many OPs discussing the same topic
    Cherry Beresfield's photo.
    20 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
  • Lord Miles Spencer Emily Thorne - Mr Butler has not moved on or been sacked. I think Lizzy has spoken to him recently, see another thread - Mr Bennett did a spoof letter that looks convincing but it is a joke, included in that was a claim that Mr B had been sacked.
    17 hrs · Like · 2
  • Janine Bresnick They are backtracking once it had been pointed out that their archive would have CEOP up the creek without a paddle and expose the case for what it is! A huge coverup! Way Back Machine were not part of the coverup until last week imo.
    12 hrs · Like · 6
  • Janine Bresnick I'm sure Mr Butler was very pleasant, he needed to be. It would be even more incriminating if he refused to speak or was rude. He's doing a great back tracking job!
    12 hrs · Like · 4
  • Mary Maxwell I think so too Janine Bresnick
    12 hrs · Like · 2
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I am afraid to make judgements on Chris Butler's conversations with me, without actually knowing the content is speculation in itself.

    He couldn't have been more forthcoming and helpful and to see comments otherwise I find very disrespectful towards h    im.

    I see my concise summary of my 25 min conversation with his has, in itself, turned into some conspiracy theory and I'm disappointed with anyone who presumes there was anything 'sinister' about it.

    Not ONE person has approached me to confirm if their theories about the conversation could be valid...Take it and run with it is what I have seen.

    I am fully aware of the implications, but have full confidence that WBM have no involvement whatsoever, especially considering they have minimum knowledge of the case.

    It has opened my eyes to how 'normal' comments can be twisted into a conspiracy.
    11 hrs · Like · 4
  • Janine Bresnick No conspiracy but a very unbelievable story that a computer program designed, tried and tested over years and used in legal cases to verify times/dates, just happened to make a mistake on CEOPs webpage. And that the mistake happened to be 3 days out. And that those three days BACK not forward (so another unfortunate coincidence) makes it highly incriminating. And that the original communication from Way Back confirmed it's accuracy. Only some hours later did they change their story!
    11 hrs · Like · 3
  • Isabel Oliveira Well after checking the website as per Martin Roberts post I see that the 30th April is returning circa 3000 results for the CEOP . Most days have a maximum of circa 10-20. This for me is a clear indicator that , in that week , some technical problem occurred with the archive . 

    Also , the first reply sent by Way Back was a proforma one . Isabelle herself showed the second email received in that sense . 

    Lizzy showed the email received in that sense . 

    The WB itself has a disclaimer that their time stamps are not always accurate .

    Most importantly , to have the CEOP advertise what they wanted to hide makes no sense to me . They would have to be totally incompetent and silly so I don't see anything in this whole case but a tech glitch . A puzzling one but a glitch . No more than that .
    11 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Janine Bresnick. Chris recognised the error after I had shown him the home page...He didn't backtrack...

    As he said...he sent the first email to Isabelle in good faith but immediately corrected it after I had given him more info about the incorrect home page
    10 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
  • Chris Roberts Computers don't "glitch", all they do in their boring little lives is shunt 0s and 1s around as instructed nothing more, nothing less.
    If this April 30th thing is an erroneous result it can only occur because an instruction had changed. Thus we are to believe that it changed back again after roundly giving it to the McCanns up the rear end.
    Hmmmmmm ... let me see now.
    10 hrs · Like · 6
  • Judy Turner Not saying it isn't possible but have they been living in a remote cave for the past 8 yrs to have not heard of the world's most known missing child?
    10 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
  • Mary Maxwell Judy I agree the world knew about Madeleine the next day
    10 hrs · Like · 1
  • Isabel Oliveira I think we have to keep in perspective that we have an interest in the case . Many , many people in many countries have forgotten about this . Papers only carry this story regularly in the Uk and Portugal . The rest of the world has moved on . There's so many disaster in the world, so many tragedies involving children , the elderly , human beings and we don't remember them either . It's the world , it's been 8 years . Apart from Britain and Portugal people hardly think about this case anymore and many know nothing about it . May seem odd to us that follow this case but it's the way things are .
    10 hrs · Like · 4
  • Chris Roberts Isabel, that may be so but most of the other happenings in the world we won't be force fed BS about for 8 years. What has happened to Amaral could in effect happen to any other honest policeman and that alone raises this case above all others. It represents the collapse of the cornerstone of any civilised society, it's justice system where all you now apparently need is sufficient money to hide behind expensive lawyers.
    7 hrs · Edited · Like · 11
  • Janine Bresnick He corrected it after the error was pointed out, I don't dispute that. What I'm struggling with is, why he changed it? Why not just agree it's an error and leave it at that? Because the date is highly incriminating? Who else may have had a word with him after that post? And I'm no computer expert but those who are say that the embedded data on the time/date stamp is real. I could understand the date being late ie 3 days forward, because the trawler missed it. But to put it back 3 days?
    10 hrs · Like · 10
  • Chris Roberts Then we need to perhaps look at odds. ..Billions of files, 365 days in a year and the "glitch" occurs to incriminate the McCanns on the only file and on the last day anyone can be certain Madeleine McCann was alive. Ladbrokes would laugh at me.
    10 hrs · Like · 7
  • Chris Roberts I understand that Steve Marsden has confirmed that the Posix date ( i.e no of seconds since the "epoch" of 1/1/1970 ) is correct. If that is so, it's not an "innocent" error because it can't be.
    9 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
  • Isabel Oliveira Agree totally , re media spin and the injustice to GA, to workers and alleged suspects in PDL , Brenda and naturally that poor child .
    9 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Judy Turner I can confirm that there is a good percentage of people here in Toronto that have never heard the name of Madeleine McCann. Just recently, even a Portuguese customer had no knowledge

    We sometimes get updates, but very rarely and it hasnt     ...See More
    9 hrs · Like · 3
  • Nana Lynda Very little reporting at the time in Central America when we were out there, lots of reporting on little Caylee Anthony, including the whole court case. Only today I spoke about JonBenet to my mother here in UK, she has never heard of that little girl.
    9 hrs · Like · 3
  • Nick Fox It's not really about what Chris says - and I don't believe WB is involved in any conspiracy. It's what the computers say.
    8 hrs · Like · 6
  • Janine Bresnick Also, the fact that Chris Butler, a senior manager at Way Back, immediately and without hesitation nor checking, responded to Isabel, confirming the time/date stamp, is in itself testimony to the fact that it was not an error. If there had been previous cases of people questioning their credentials or authenticity, his reply would to have been to delay his response until he'd checked or at the very least told her that he'd check it and get back to her! So by implication of such an unequivocal and timely reply, in his mind he'd never heard of such an error.
    8 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
  • Nick Fox Still waiting for one debunker to explain how it happened. No credible answers so far.
    8 hrs · Like · 6
  • Isabel Oliveira Not me  double l and e Isabelle credits for who contacted WB x
    8 hrs · Like · 2
  • Steve Marsden I've been using the wayback machine since before 9/11. Now I check the source code of everything I look at and I've yet to see any inconsistency with the way the grabbed pages end up with a URL based on the timestamp.
    8 hrs · Edited · Like · 7
  • Chris Roberts Computers are really no different now to how they have always been. The hardware or the nuts and bolts if you prefer still does exactly the same job it did 50 years ago. Yes they're more powerful and capacious now but essentially the same... still shifting 0s and 1s about according to the instruction. 
    What HAS changed massively is the software that utilises the computer's power and a whole plethora of applications. The great thing about software is that in any given circumstance it will always have precisely the same effect. It will "instruct" the computer to perform a function and it will always produce precisely the same result. If you think it won't then you would also have to believe that revisiting the last page of a book you read to see how the printed word changed since the last time you looked. 
    The point of this mini diatribe is this. IF there is an error in the results from the Wayback machine, it can only come from a software issue. 
    Not unheard of but only fixable by fixing the software.
    Manually "correcting" the CEOP file will not prevent it happening again and that's why I do not believe the WBM "solution" to a "problem" that only confirms what so many of us already believe. Madeleine was gone long before May 3rd..
    7 hrs · Like · 5
  • Martina McCosker Agree totally Chris, computers and dogs dont lie, only humans
    7 hrs · Like · 6
  • Steve Marsden The more you take a step back from the case and review everything, logic dictates that the "abduction plan" was not something done by the seat of the pants on May 3. 200 journalists do not swarm into a sleepy little Portuguese town on the basis of a girl reported missing just before midnight and who may be found by daybreak. Yet that is exactly what happened and everyone fell for it. The reality is that such a plan required action to clean up, falsify creche records, alibi build - which obviously went awry because of the inconsistencies. It explains the weird cellphone pings and flurry of messages. It explains the swift way that Bell Pottinger had another man onsite to help the McCanns within two days. It explains why Bell Pottinger had a boss there the previous week. In short, a disappeared Madeleine earlier that week really does start to explain everything.
    7 hrs · Like · 6
  • Chris Roberts My bank card is in the name of Christophe Roberts with a missing 'r' off the end and I'm not French. The bank told me that this is due to "computer error" when in point of fact, it's a screw up by whoever typed in my details. Not hardware, not software, just "humanware" and it's exactly why a file that really couldn't exist if you believe the McCann fairy tale , did. Someone screwed up, it happens all the time.
    7 hrs · Like · 4
  • Chris Roberts Yes Steve and in the scheme of things, Madeleine really wasn't that important. I've always wondered why there was such a reaction to it.
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Steve Marsden Chris, one would think that a court injunction was filed to prevent the fallout from a very serious situation where some top Establishment figure (politician or Royal) would be implicated. Celebrities don't have that clout as we've seen with Harris and Clifford. Politicians and Royals really are proven to be untouchable. It has to involve someone of that calibre.
    7 hrs · Like · 5
  • Chris Roberts A child goes missing in circumstances easily explained by the "parents". The local police do their best to locate the child but fail for whatever reason. Logically NOTHING justifies the world and his wife of the MSM turning up and nothing justifies the involvement of the Prime Minister and his heir apparent. 
    A few days ago 30 Britons were slaughtered on a beach in Tunisia. I think the BBC and Sky sent crews over there but they're home again now. I doubt if any of the injured survivors got on the phone to David Cameron about it and it's already faded into the background.
    Prai da luz was lousy with journalists for weeks.
    7 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lord Miles Spencer Lizzy, some people believe they are hiding something because this case is chock-a-block full of cover-ups and shiftiness - can u really blame people for wanting a full technical explanation - it would surely take a few minutes to explain - INCORRECT and SUBSET don't do it for me - imo - I am prepared to be wrong

    Nor is SUBSET definitive !
    6 hrs · Edited · Like · 3
  • Chris Roberts Software is a wonderful thing. You specify it, write it and then test it to ensure it does precisely what it says on the box to specification..
    If it doesnt, you investigate the error or "Bug" and test the whole product and it's functionality again to    ...See More
    6 hrs · Edited · Like · 3
  • Chris Roberts As to the logic of why this webpage was " produced in advance " my gut feeling is that CEOP had a whistle blower but their action remained undetected until Steve Marsden came rumbling down the track.
    6 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Isabel - CEOP did not "advertise" what they wished hidden - I still believe it was a work in progress - I believe that whoever uploaded that was merely getting the page ready - waiting for the second tennis balls photo, allegedly yet to be taken, and the posters, on which, from memory, is tennis balls again - neither would be linked to until they were uploaded - I had no idea crawlers existed at that time, hell, some people didn't know they exist today and I was designing and hosting sites from 1999 - maybe subset will be explained when I read the rest of this thread - it was on the server and certainly would not have been advertised
    6 hrs · Like · 3
  • Maggie Potter 1st poster was an old pic from the camera, pinky red sort of top.

    The thing is if archived sites have been used in court then does all parties just accept that they are error free or would any prosecutor worth his weight quiz the hell out of them about errors.

    Anybody know what cases they were used in?
    6 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Steve, Do you think that this kind of response would have occurred if it was one of our top Christian celebrities, say Cliff Richard - no accusations intended
    5 hrs · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer Has there been ANY expert explanation about this subset ? Links please - ta
    5 hrs · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Chris explained to me. I thought by mentioning 'subset' someone would have some knowledge.
    2 hrs · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor My comments from a 25 minute conversation with Chris have been taken totally out of context. I know the truth of my conversation with him and it does not come close to reflecting the comments I have seen made about it. My eyes have been opened about how comments can be twisted and made to look so different.
    2 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Chris Roberts Lizzy Hideho Taylor we all know what a "subset" is but it's irrelevant in explaining how this purported "error" occurred. I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to twist any comments here and a few of us ( e.g Steve Marsden and Lord Miles Spencer ) have a certain knowledge and experience of the technical issues involved here.
    We really have to ask ourselves is April 30th significant in some way? Well your own superb research suggests that it certainly is. Then we have to consider the odds of such an "error" occuring pertinent to that date. 
    As I posted earlier, WBM's "solution" of manual correction is no solution at all because without identifying and remedying the root cause of the "error", it will certainly happen again and throw their whole raison d'etre into the garbage.
    2 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Have I twisted anything Lizzy, feel free to pm me if I have
    1 hr · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer Actually, I don't think I know what a subset is Chris - remind me
    1 hr · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer As a community we have learned - the question I pose is have we learned enough ? A few people were very quick the snapshot and grab the code that we did - full marks for that BUT did we do enough ?
    1 hr · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Lord Miles Spencer, no, lol you have not taken anything I have said and twisted it. I am just talking in the general comments I have seen.

    I have no idea of the technical side so I cannot make judgements on that but I have found it totally disrespectful to Chris, who, as I have explained, spent 25 minutes, explaining all he could to me, acknowledging it is their error and offering to be as helpful as possible even if it was so important to anyone that they felt it necessary to bring the police in. 

    He made it very clear that until I called and pointed out the Home page errors that he was not fully aware of the problem and as soon as he realised there was a mistake, he admitted it and contacted Isabelle to correct his first email which, although incorrect, he said he made in good faith

    To have his comments perceived as a suggestion that he was fobbing me off....that he was making some effort to scramble to explain his first email to Isabelle, to suggest hiding something and ultimately complicit in a major coverup, and all based on MY comments as a very concise summary of our conversation has shown me how comments can be twisted to serve an agenda.

    Noone (except Chris) has any idea whatsoever about my conversation, and noone has approached me to find out.

    i am as skeptical as the rest and certainly went into this knowing the implications ...but I'm also not stupid and am more than able to make a judgement on whether its possible that someone is skirting the details. Chris certainly went above and beyond to be helpful.

    He was forthcoming with anything I asked and straightforward in taking responsibility for their error..

    .I do not know whether this reflects on there being a sinister page that was in place by CEOP, but I can assure you that my communication with Chris was not riddled with efforts to cover anything up.

    Maybe they haven't pinpointed the reason yet, and if so, why should they be obliged to tell anyone the details?

    Chris admitted to not being aware of the case before all this happened and my guess is that they don't feel the case is relevant to them. They found an error, they immediately admitted to it and have spent time trying to resolve it.

    To see suggestions they may be complicit, with nothing to base it on is out of order in my opinion and disrespectful to Chris, who took time out of his busy workday to attempt to help.
    18 mins · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Regarding the 'subset' (which I mentioned as I felt it may be a clue to some and not because that was the explanation in itself) he mentioned something about the unique process ...... and there was an error in that specific process .......and a very small subset of the larger archives ..etc etc . (probably not helpful but it was within those comments he used 'subset'
    11 mins · Like
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Re：Chris Butler Convo June 29th 2015

Date Posted：01/07/2015 10:38 PMCopy HTML


Lizzy Hideho Taylor
June 29 at 1:12pm · Edited

I just spoke to Chris about the WBM issues to ask if there could be a further email about the reason the CEOP page appeared on April 30th. His response was that the email he sent to me initially was an acknowledgement of their error in the Timestamp (something to do with a 'subset') and that there really isn't anything else they can reply to.

He has become aware of the 'speculation' but basically cannot respond any further and suggested that if anyone has any queries about anything regarding the error and if they feel that there may be major implications they should contact the police and he will furnish them with any information necessary.

Lizzy Hideho Taylor's photo.
Like · Comment · 
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I see there are questions on Twitter, (I don't respond on Twitter) why Chris would suggest to go to the police and 'waste their time'. I think I made it clear......'if they feel that there may be major implications they should contact the police and he will furnish them with any information necessary.'

    It's up to the individual to decide if they feel it is important enough.
    June 29 at 2:07pm · Edited · Like · 3
  • Emily Thorne I thought Mr Butler had been moved on?
    June 29 at 2:10pm · Like
  • Maggie Potter Well if I had been quick enough to grab the source code I would hand it over. 

    20 year of archiving billions and billions of pages and only one page makes it into wrong folder.
    June 29 at 2:26pm · Like · 12
  • Lorraine Birks Is that a snap picture or an actual link Maggie ? I am not very good with computers but did have some snaps that night ..
    June 29 at 2:28pm · Like
  • Maggie Potter No the actual source code on the page showing 30th April archive. Some browsers let you view the code but will only show what html your comp rendered on the screen. Developers have tools allow them to grab the actual code sent out by the server.
    June 29 at 2:37pm · Like
  • Maggie Potter By time I saw the post the 30th had been removed and was defaulting to 13th may
    June 29 at 2:38pm · Like
  • Lorraine Birks I saw it still as 30th April so took a few shots .
    June 29 at 2:38pm · Like · 4
  • Maggie Potter I'm no good with names but the guy who posted about it, I think he managed to grab it and I'm not sure but think someone else did too.
    June 29 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
  • Mary Maxwell Steve Marsden or Lord Miles Spencer may have it
    June 29 at 4:38pm · Like · 4
  • Heather Hopper There are many screen shots and research on this forum.You can join as a guest to see and read and post.http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/
    The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann
    What really happened to Madeleine McCann? Kate...
    JILLHAVERN.FORUMOTION.NET
    June 29 at 5:24pm · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I copied the source code html over to this page but it automatically shows the page and not the code. However, if someone can take the code of each post and convert it back to html, after removing the aimoo info there may be some original sourcecode.

    There are two pages, the Maddie page and the Home page from April 30th

    http://forum4.aimoo.com/.../html-wayback-machine-ceop...
    html wayback machine ceop april 30 - Madeleine McCann CONTROVERSY
    archive_analytics.values.server_name=wwwb-app10.us.archive.org;archive_analytics.values.server_ms=122;<​link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href=/static/css/banner-styles.css> Help find Madeleine McCa.
    FORUM4.AIMOO.COM
    June 29 at 5:40pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
  • Lord Miles Spencer Maggie - I have the source code as do a few others
    June 29 at 7:11pm · Like · 4
  • Lord Miles Spencer The source code was also sent to IM by Chris as a PDF file - if anyone wants it I am more than happy to send my email - just send a request to CEOP@addax.co.uk - u wi get it within 24 hours - I will also try and upload as a file to Lizzys forum - "subset" - what is he talking about ?
    June 29 at 7:16pm · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I had a perfectly 'normal' conversation with Chris. He was forthcoming and helpful. He felt he had been straightforward and definitive in his previous email about the error and could see nothing more to add. He didn't try to shrug me off.. The call was close to 30 mins in length.

    Why is it being suggested they are hiding something because they haven't gone into a technically detailed reason for the error?

    They are obviously confident in their error, acknowledged it and can do no more..

    I am confident in Chris Butler's explanation and give it far more credibility than the speculation they are complicit in a major cover up.

    Even more so when you keep in mind they had never heard Madeleine McCann's name before this happened.
    Yesterday at 4:00am · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer I have uploaded source code as a file see above and to the right of where you post, or click here 

    https://www.facebook.com/.../HiDeHoCONTROVERSYofMa.../files/
    Yesterday at 4:40am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
  • Maggie Potter I wouldn't say they are part of a conspiracy. It's just strange and worth someone Independant of them to have a look. I mean really what are the odds that after 20year and billions or trillions of archives that this is the only page with that error. I could be wrong but I would expect to see either a scattering of pages archived in error the same way over a period of time or a significant chunk of those archived at same time all in wrong folders. There could be lots they just haven't noticed due to extensive size of the archives. There is also the possibility that the code is hacked to make it look like ceop knew beforehand.
    Yesterday at 5:11am · Like · 2
  • Cherry Beresfield Lord Miles Spencer post moved from new OP to avoid having too many OPs discussing the same topic
    Cherry Beresfield's photo.
    Yesterday at 5:45am · Edited · Like · 2
  • Lord Miles Spencer Emily Thorne - Mr Butler has not moved on or been sacked. I think Lizzy has spoken to him recently, see another thread - Mr Bennett did a spoof letter that looks convincing but it is a joke, included in that was a claim that Mr B had been sacked.
    Yesterday at 8:54am · Like · 2
  • Janine Bresnick They are backtracking once it had been pointed out that their archive would have CEOP up the creek without a paddle and expose the case for what it is! A huge coverup! Way Back Machine were not part of the coverup until last week imo.
    Yesterday at 1:41pm · Like · 6
  • Janine Bresnick I'm sure Mr Butler was very pleasant, he needed to be. It would be even more incriminating if he refused to speak or was rude. He's doing a great back tracking job!
    Yesterday at 1:43pm · Like · 4
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I am afraid to make judgements on Chris Butler's conversations with me, without actually knowing the content is speculation in itself.

    He couldn't have been more forthcoming and helpful and to see comments otherwise I find very disrespectful towards h    im.

    I see my concise summary of my 25 min conversation with his has, in itself, turned into some conspiracy theory and I'm disappointed with anyone who presumes there was anything 'sinister' about it.

    Not ONE person has approached me to confirm if their theories about the conversation could be valid...Take it and run with it is what I have seen.

    I am fully aware of the implications, but have full confidence that WBM have no involvement whatsoever, especially considering they have minimum knowledge of the case.

    It has opened my eyes to how 'normal' comments can be twisted into a conspiracy.
    Yesterday at 3:10pm · Like · 4
  • Janine Bresnick No conspiracy but a very unbelievable story that a computer program designed, tried and tested over years and used in legal cases to verify times/dates, just happened to make a mistake on CEOPs webpage. And that the mistake happened to be 3 days out. And that those three days BACK not forward (so another unfortunate coincidence) makes it highly incriminating. And that the original communication from Way Back confirmed it's accuracy. Only some hours later did they change their story!
    Yesterday at 3:17pm · Like · 4
  • Isabel Oliveira Well after checking the website as per Martin Roberts post I see that the 30th April is returning circa 3000 results for the CEOP . Most days have a maximum of circa 10-20. This for me is a clear indicator that , in that week , some technical problem occurred with the archive . 

    Also , the first reply sent by Way Back was a proforma one . Isabelle herself showed the second email received in that sense . 

    Lizzy showed the email received in that sense . 

    The WB itself has a disclaimer that their time stamps are not always accurate .

    Most importantly , to have the CEOP advertise what they wanted to hide makes no sense to me . They would have to be totally incompetent and silly so I don't see anything in this whole case but a tech glitch . A puzzling one but a glitch . No more than that .
    Yesterday at 3:25pm · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Janine Bresnick. Chris recognised the error after I had shown him the home page...He didn't backtrack...

    As he said...he sent the first email to Isabelle in good faith but immediately corrected it after I had given him more info about the incorrect home page
    Yesterday at 3:50pm · Edited · Like · 1
  • Chris Roberts Computers don't "glitch", all they do in their boring little lives is shunt 0s and 1s around as instructed nothing more, nothing less.
    If this April 30th thing is an erroneous result it can only occur because an instruction had changed. Thus we are to believe that it changed back again after roundly giving it to the McCanns up the rear end.
    Hmmmmmm ... let me see now.
    18 hours ago · Like · 7
  • Judy Turner Not saying it isn't possible but have they been living in a remote cave for the past 8 yrs to have not heard of the world's most known missing child?
    18 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1
  • Mary Maxwell Judy I agree the world knew about Madeleine the next day
    18 hours ago · Like · 1
  • Isabel Oliveira I think we have to keep in perspective that we have an interest in the case . Many , many people in many countries have forgotten about this . Papers only carry this story regularly in the Uk and Portugal . The rest of the world has moved on . There's so many disaster in the world, so many tragedies involving children , the elderly , human beings and we don't remember them either . It's the world , it's been 8 years . Apart from Britain and Portugal people hardly think about this case anymore and many know nothing about it . May seem odd to us that follow this case but it's the way things are .
    18 hours ago · Like · 4
  • Chris Roberts Isabel, that may be so but most of the other happenings in the world we won't be force fed BS about for 8 years. What has happened to Amaral could in effect happen to any other honest policeman and that alone raises this case above all others. It represents the collapse of the cornerstone of any civilised society, it's justice system where all you now apparently need is sufficient money to hide behind expensive lawyers.
    23 hrs · Edited · Like · 14
  • Janine Bresnick He corrected it after the error was pointed out, I don't dispute that. What I'm struggling with is, why he changed it? Why not just agree it's an error and leave it at that? Because the date is highly incriminating? Who else may have had a word with him after that post? And I'm no computer expert but those who are say that the embedded data on the time/date stamp is real. I could understand the date being late ie 3 days forward, because the trawler missed it. But to put it back 3 days?
    17 hours ago · Like · 10
  • Chris Roberts Then we need to perhaps look at odds. ..Billions of files, 365 days in a year and the "glitch" occurs to incriminate the McCanns on the only file and on the last day anyone can be certain Madeleine McCann was alive. Ladbrokes would laugh at me.
    17 hours ago · Like · 7
  • Chris Roberts I understand that Steve Marsden has confirmed that the Posix date ( i.e no of seconds since the "epoch" of 1/1/1970 ) is correct. If that is so, it's not an "innocent" error because it can't be.
    17 hours ago · Edited · Like · 6
  • Isabel Oliveira Agree totally , re media spin and the injustice to GA, to workers and alleged suspects in PDL , Brenda and naturally that poor child .
    17 hours ago · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Judy Turner I can confirm that there is a good percentage of people here in Toronto that have never heard the name of Madeleine McCann. Just recently, even a Portuguese customer had no knowledge

    We sometimes get updates, but very rarely and it hasnt     been much of a story over here.

    I will confirm to you that when I spoke to Chris, the only knowledge he had was because Isabel had contacted him earlier and still, as of yesterday has barely any knowledge of the case.

    He admitted to me to not knowing anything about it until this 'happened' and is only just realising that its a big media story in UK

    I fell there may be even less knowledge in the States than there is here in Canada.
    16 hours ago · Like · 3
  • Nana Lynda Very little reporting at the time in Central America when we were out there, lots of reporting on little Caylee Anthony, including the whole court case. Only today I spoke about JonBenet to my mother here in UK, she has never heard of that little girl.
    16 hours ago · Like · 3
  • Nick Fox It's not really about what Chris says - and I don't believe WB is involved in any conspiracy. It's what the computers say.
    16 hours ago · Like · 6
  • Janine Bresnick Also, the fact that Chris Butler, a senior manager at Way Back, immediately and without hesitation nor checking, responded to Isabel, confirming the time/date stamp, is in itself testimony to the fact that it was not an error. If there had been previous cases of people questioning their credentials or authenticity, his reply would to have been to delay his response until he'd checked or at the very least told her that he'd check it and get back to her! So by implication of such an unequivocal and timely reply, in his mind he'd never heard of such an error.
    16 hours ago · Edited · Like · 5
  • Nick Fox Still waiting for one debunker to explain how it happened. No credible answers so far.
    16 hours ago · Like · 6
  • Isabel Oliveira Not me  double l and e Isabelle credits for who contacted WB x
    16 hours ago · Like · 2
  • Steve Marsden I've been using the wayback machine since before 9/11. Now I check the source code of everything I look at and I've yet to see any inconsistency with the way the grabbed pages end up with a URL based on the timestamp.
    23 hrs · Edited · Like · 8
  • Chris Roberts Computers are really no different now to how they have always been. The hardware or the nuts and bolts if you prefer still does exactly the same job it did 50 years ago. Yes they're more powerful and capacious now but essentially the same... still shifting 0s and 1s about according to the instruction. 
    What HAS changed massively is the software that utilises the computer's power and a whole plethora of applications. The great thing about software is that in any given circumstance it will always have precisely the same effect. It will "instruct" the computer to perform a function and it will always produce precisely the same result. If you think it won't then you would also have to believe that revisiting the last page of a book you read to see how the printed word changed since the last time you looked. 
    The point of this mini diatribe is this. IF there is an error in the results from the Wayback machine, it can only come from a software issue. 
    Not unheard of but only fixable by fixing the software.
    Manually "correcting" the CEOP file will not prevent it happening again and that's why I do not believe the WBM "solution" to a "problem" that only confirms what so many of us already believe. Madeleine was gone long before May 3rd..
    23 hrs · Like · 8
  • Martina McCosker Agree totally Chris, computers and dogs dont lie, only humans
    23 hrs · Like · 8
  • Steve Marsden The more you take a step back from the case and review everything, logic dictates that the "abduction plan" was not something done by the seat of the pants on May 3. 200 journalists do not swarm into a sleepy little Portuguese town on the basis of a girl reported missing just before midnight and who may be found by daybreak. Yet that is exactly what happened and everyone fell for it. The reality is that such a plan required action to clean up, falsify creche records, alibi build - which obviously went awry because of the inconsistencies. It explains the weird cellphone pings and flurry of messages. It explains the swift way that Bell Pottinger had another man onsite to help the McCanns within two days. It explains why Bell Pottinger had a boss there the previous week. In short, a disappeared Madeleine earlier that week really does start to explain everything.
    23 hrs · Like · 11
  • Chris Roberts My bank card is in the name of Christophe Roberts with a missing 'r' off the end and I'm not French. The bank told me that this is due to "computer error" when in point of fact, it's a screw up by whoever typed in my details. Not hardware, not software, just "humanware" and it's exactly why a file that really couldn't exist if you believe the McCann fairy tale , did. Someone screwed up, it happens all the time.
    23 hrs · Like · 6
  • Chris Roberts Yes Steve and in the scheme of things, Madeleine really wasn't that important. I've always wondered why there was such a reaction to it.
    23 hrs · Like · 3
  • Steve Marsden Chris, one would think that a court injunction was filed to prevent the fallout from a very serious situation where some top Establishment figure (politician or Royal) would be implicated. Celebrities don't have that clout as we've seen with Harris and Clifford. Politicians and Royals really are proven to be untouchable. It has to involve someone of that calibre.
    23 hrs · Like · 7
  • Chris Roberts A child goes missing in circumstances easily explained by the "parents". The local police do their best to locate the child but fail for whatever reason. Logically NOTHING justifies the world and his wife of the MSM turning up and nothing justifies the involvement of the Prime Minister and his heir apparent. 
    A few days ago 30 Britons were slaughtered on a beach in Tunisia. I think the BBC and Sky sent crews over there but they're home again now. I doubt if any of the injured survivors got on the phone to David Cameron about it and it's already faded into the background.
    Prai da luz was lousy with journalists for weeks.
    23 hrs · Like · 7
  • Lord Miles Spencer Lizzy, some people believe they are hiding something because this case is chock-a-block full of cover-ups and shiftiness - can u really blame people for wanting a full technical explanation - it would surely take a few minutes to explain - INCORRECT and SUBSET don't do it for me - imo - I am prepared to be wrong

    Nor is SUBSET definitive !
    22 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
  • Chris Roberts Software is a wonderful thing. You specify it, write it and then test it to ensure it does precisely what it says on the box to specification..
    If it doesnt, you investigate the error or "Bug" and test the whole product and it's functionality again to     ensure that the correction hasn't caused a knock on effect elsewhere.
    Or, you can do what WBM appear to have done which is to manually correct the result of the "error" and ignore the software that caused it, trusting in whatever God you believe in that it can't happen again.
    Now I really would have thought no-one could be that stupid .... but I also am prepared to be proved wrong.
    So, what I'm looking for is a full technical explanation which eliminates any possibility whatsoever that this file is genuine because the more I draw on my own experience and the more I look at it, the more I believe it is.
    22 hrs · Edited · Like · 6
  • Chris Roberts As to the logic of why this webpage was " produced in advance " my gut feeling is that CEOP had a whistle blower but their action remained undetected until Steve Marsden came rumbling down the track.
    22 hrs · Like · 4
  • Lord Miles Spencer Isabel - CEOP did not "advertise" what they wished hidden - I still believe it was a work in progress - I believe that whoever uploaded that was merely getting the page ready - waiting for the second tennis balls photo, allegedly yet to be taken, and the posters, on which, from memory, is tennis balls again - neither would be linked to until they were uploaded - I had no idea crawlers existed at that time, hell, some people didn't know they exist today and I was designing and hosting sites from 1999 - maybe subset will be explained when I read the rest of this thread - it was on the server and certainly would not have been advertised
    22 hrs · Like · 5
  • Maggie Potter 1st poster was an old pic from the camera, pinky red sort of top.

    The thing is if archived sites have been used in court then does all parties just accept that they are error free or would any prosecutor worth his weight quiz the hell out of them about errors.

    Anybody know what cases they were used in?
    22 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Steve, Do you think that this kind of response would have occurred if it was one of our top Christian celebrities, say Cliff Richard - no accusations intended
    21 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Has there been ANY expert explanation about this subset ? Links please - ta
    21 hrs · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Chris explained to me. I thought by mentioning 'subset' someone would have some knowledge.
    18 hrs · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor My comments from a 25 minute conversation with Chris have been taken totally out of context. I know the truth of my conversation with him and it does not come close to reflecting the comments I have seen made about it. My eyes have been opened about how comments can be twisted and made to look so different.
    18 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Chris Roberts Lizzy Hideho Taylor we all know what a "subset" is but it's irrelevant in explaining how this purported "error" occurred. I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to twist any comments here and a few of us ( e.g Steve Marsden and Lord Miles Spencer ) have a certain knowledge and experience of the technical issues involved here.
    We really have to ask ourselves is April 30th significant in some way? Well your own superb research suggests that it certainly is. Then we have to consider the odds of such an "error" occuring pertinent to that date. 
    As I posted earlier, WBM's "solution" of manual correction is no solution at all because without identifying and remedying the root cause of the "error", it will certainly happen again and throw their whole raison d'etre into the garbage.
    18 hrs · Like · 7
  • Lord Miles Spencer Have I twisted anything Lizzy, feel free to pm me if I have
    17 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Actually, I don't think I know what a subset is Chris - remind me
    17 hrs · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer As a community we have learned - the question I pose is have we learned enough ? A few people were very quick the snapshot and grab the code that we did - full marks for that BUT did we do enough ?
    17 hrs · Like · 2
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Lord Miles Spencer, no, lol you have not taken anything I have said and twisted it. I am just talking in the general comments I have seen.

    I have no idea of the technical side so I cannot make judgements on that but I have found it totally disrespect    ful to Chris, who, as I have explained, spent 25 minutes, explaining all he could to me, acknowledging it is their error and offering to be as helpful as possible even if it was so important to anyone that they felt it necessary to bring the police in. 

    He made it very clear that until I called and pointed out the Home page errors that he was not fully aware of the problem and as soon as he realised there was a mistake, he admitted it and contacted Isabelle to correct his first email which, although incorrect, he said he made in good faith

    To have his comments perceived as a suggestion that he was fobbing me off....that he was making some effort to scramble to explain his first email to Isabelle, to suggest hiding something and ultimately complicit in a major coverup, and all based on MY comments as a very concise summary of our conversation has shown me how comments can be twisted to serve an agenda.

    Noone (except Chris) has any idea whatsoever about my conversation, and noone has approached me to find out.

    i am as skeptical as the rest and certainly went into this knowing the implications ...but I'm also not stupid and am more than able to make a judgement on whether its possible that someone is skirting the details. Chris certainly went above and beyond to be helpful.

    He was forthcoming with anything I asked and straightforward in taking responsibility for their error..

    .I do not know whether this reflects on there being a sinister page that was in place by CEOP, but I can assure you that my communication with Chris was not riddled with efforts to cover anything up.

    Maybe they haven't pinpointed the reason yet, and if so, why should they be obliged to tell anyone the details?

    Chris admitted to not being aware of the case before all this happened and my guess is that they don't feel the case is relevant to them. They found an error, they immediately admitted to it and have spent time trying to resolve it.

    To see suggestions they may be complicit, with nothing to base it on is out of order in my opinion and disrespectful to Chris, who took time out of his busy workday to attempt to help.
    16 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Regarding the 'subset' (which I mentioned as I felt it may be a clue to some and not because that was the explanation in itself) he mentioned something about the unique process ...... and there was an error in that specific process .......and a very small subset of the larger archives ..etc etc . (probably not helpful but it was within those comments he used 'subset'
    16 hrs · Like · 3
  • Nick Fox Sorry Lizzy, in his email to you he didn't acknowledge an error. He implied there might have been an error and that they were investigating. 'subset' can only be derived from constituents of the 'set'. So still puzzled. Don't think WB are involved in any conspiracy... just probably as perplexed as anyone how their computers can time travel.
    15 hrs · Edited · Like · 3
  • Lord Miles Spencer Do you think he would consider coming onto a thread, himself or one of their archvists, and answering some of the experts on here's questions - just a thought - explaining it to you, or i for that matter, wouldnt really help resolve the issue as neither of us knows what this subset he is talking about is....
    15 hrs · Like · 2
  • Claire Welsman No offence Lizzy, but trying to explain coding to a non-coder/non-techie would probably be a bit like talking swedish to a welsh guy and expecting him to understand in depth. 

    I did a course on web design for a year (til relational databases were need    ed then I ran screaming) and half of the stuff on here is miles above my head.

    I suspect if one of the guys (oh yes sexism in computing exists big time imo) on here with experience in coding had contacted him he'd have got off the phone fast regardless of how nice a guy he is. 

    "Computers dont get happy, they dont get sad, they just run programmes" great quote for Short Circuit smile emoticon
    14 hrs · Like · 3
  • Maggie Potter Going by Lizzy's last comment then sounds to me like there are other pages with the error. Someone mentioned 3000 ceop results for that day and these could very well be the very small subset. If only those then it needs further investigation, if unrelated pages involved then could be just one of those unexplained coincidences. And I remind it could still be a hackers work to keep us all busy and distracted chasing tails, he wouldn't necessarily mention this until they found and patched the way in.
    14 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer My facts - any disagreements ? any objections ?

    1 - WBM captured ceop dot gov dot uk/mccann.html and saved it in a time-stamped folder (index if u prefer) called 20070430115803. 

    1a - That time stamp is replicated within the source code of mccann.html in BOTH java and html

    2 - That particular folder was missing a graphic madeleine_02.jpg which caused screengrabs to show the text of the alt-tag "photograph of madeleine"

    3 - The file mccann.html is now missing and the folder redirects, although links to the now-re-directing folder remain on later captures.

    4 - The May 13th folder 20070513XXXXXX contains the madeleine_02.jpg image, this is why May 13th screengrab shows TWO images

    5 - Theory - work-in-progress captured on April 30th
    14 hrs · Edited · Like · 7
  • Maggie Potter Nope none from me Miles
    14 hrs · Like · 1
  • Steve Marsden I'd like to know why he's fobbing me off and not returning my calls or emails. Also Lizzy why did you redact his email address? I write Javascript, PHP, MySQL, and a variety of other types of code daily. I've been writing code earning a living from it since I was 21. I'm credited on probably a fair few million sales of video games and have a few number one selling games in my portfolio. I think they could explain what this so called error is in a technical language I and others will understand. Why they are avoiding that I have no idea. (ETA The wayback machine is programmed in Python. Facebook is PHP and heavy on the Javascript)
    13 hrs · Edited · Like · 6
  • Jan Ward This is not just a possible code error or whatever the correct term is... It is linked to the most publicized crime in history, against a 3 year old little tot and I still say the wrong people were informed about it first.
    13 hrs · Like · 2
  • Isabel Oliveira Jan, in that case then we would have to think about the sending of this information to Jim Gamble on Twitter on the 17th June. If that is not unwise I don't know what is.https://twitter.com/JimGamble.../status/611446745566945280
    Jim Gamble på Twitter
    “@FruityAppsDev its def some kind of error the 'deluded' will/have gone into conspiracy overdrive. Some...
    TWITTER.COM|BY JIM GAMBLE
    13 hrs · Edited · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
  • Jan Ward Isabel Oliveira, someone did break their neck and send it to J Gamble on day one.... my point exactly. As the saying goes, to be pre-warned is to be pre-armed. It's a bit like the Drug Squad phoning up a drug dealer to warn them that they are going to be raided...
    12 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
  • Lorraine Birks As someone that is not very computer literate I look at this basically ...... Wayback is just a machine .... It doesn't discriminate on what it picks up and what it doesn't .
    It's crawler moves through capturing information as it happens .
    It captured     the CEOP page on the 30th April .2007 . 
    If it wasn't there it couldn't have picked it up .
    If it has been deleted ,,, then there should automatically be a " hole " in the sequence of pick ups .
    12 hrs · Like · 8
  • Steve Marsden Listen, I posted this information after a lot of thought. I would do the same thing again. Several reasons why: if I told the PJ and it suddenly disappeared then all I'd have would be my word on it. Second, I didn't want another forum myth like the deleted fridge blog that nobody has a copy of. Third, I wanted it to have the benefit of going somewhat viral through social media. I expected healthy debate but I am very perplexed why, when Lizzy found out her first words were "I'll get in touch with them and have them correct it." I have fully respected Lizzy and her contributions to the case for eight years but that first response is the most baffling of all to me and the scores of people who PM me to ask why Lizzy was hell bent on doing that.
    9 hrs · Edited · Like · 4
  • Mary Maxwell To me there is no correction possible on embedded data. Fact remains 30th April 2007
    9 hrs · Like · 2
  • Isabel Oliveira Steven, I think if people have a problem with Lizzy's correspondence with WB they should PM Lizzy directy. It serves absolutely no purpose now for everyone to start taking sides on this matter in the sense of seing something sinister in eachother's behaviour. We don't all agree with eachother on several matters but we can all still work together.In fairness now, little people, and that includes me, took the initiative to contact WB to try and find out what happened or not. In any case, URL's and SS are kept and that is enough for any investigation into the matter, should there be one. 

    This "he said, she said " that is taking placeover this issue is not healthy in my view. Lizzy did not mean what is implied in that sentence nor did you mean to cause any problems by putting the WB info out there nor does any of this take away the unquestionnable value of your research. 

    I think it is time we all stop, look at the info carefully , make our minds up as to what we think it means (and this may change on a daily basis, again I speak for myself) and agree to disagree , as we have all done on many other ocasions and proceed with a healthy debate on the matter.
    9 hrs · Like · 1
  • Steve Marsden I agree Isabel but people will naturally PM me because it was my discovery.
    8 hrs · Like · 1
  • Chris Roberts To clarify what I believe is a minor but salient point. A "subset" is a minor part of the whole and if the explanation is that this subset was responsible for the "error" then it would have continued to be so for the last 8 years because whatever it's doing was never corrected. Unless the subset only relates to matters of McCann and/or CEOP, it simply does not make any sense whatsoever.
    "subset
    noun
    a part of a larger group of related things."
    8 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Claire Welsman And why would an outside company agency have a script just relating to one website when it trawls the net as a whole.
    7 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lisa Pritchard Why are we blaming wbm when it is CEOP activities that are alledgedly dodgy. 
    WBM just saved / recorded them (correctly imo) for prosperity.
    7 hrs · Like · 5
  • Martina McCosker I think maybe Lizzy found this gentleman helpful and charming and therefore believing all that he told her, thats not the same Lizzy I know to be passionate about getting at the true problem here, I still love you though Lizzy, don't go soft on us
    6 hrs · Like · 2
  • Lisa Pritchard Everything Chris Roberts has written makes sense to me. Why has this particular file had an error?? It happens to be mccann.html/CEOP. What are the chances??? Another coincidence!!??
    Wayback Machine is in Canada and as Lizzy Hideho Taylor says have li    ttle to no knowledge of the case of missing maddie. Their computer was just doing the job it was supposed to do. 
    It has exposed what was happening behind the scenes imo. 
    Why is Chris Butler saying it is a subset or whatever error?? Surely he would say there are no errors at WBM. Especially as the case is of no importance to him.
    6 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lord Miles Spencer Lizzys commitment and dedication to Maddie is awe-inspiring - The time it takes to do the videos alone is worthy of a medal (you watching Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha) however Lizzy is, in a way, our very own main stream media. Lizzy is respected and a go-to and people will listen which is why it is perhaps more important the correct terminology is used - Love you both Lizzy and Steve, keep it up
    6 hrs · Like · 6
  • Lorraine Birks Richard Hall tried to explain it basically , so that most people will understand .
    Lorraine Birks's photo.
    5 hrs · Like · 6
  • Lisa Pritchard I would also like to thank Lord Miles Spencer and Carmel Guilfoyle for explaining terms to me.
    5 hrs · Like · 1
  • Michael Shaw With regard to Rich Hall's explanation I would say May 3rd is past the expiry date, as heartless as that sounds.
    3 hrs · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Steve Marsden I redacted Chris' email address out of respect. The initial email he gave me was different to the one he responded on.

    As far as I recall, I did not call WBM and ask them to correct it "I'll get in touch with them and have them correct     it." as you claimed.

    My initial call was to bring the mistakes to their attention. (the incorrect pages from future dates (July and October) being placed on the April 30th date)

    Those mistakes were 'facts' and Chris acknowledged them but I have since recognised this isnt about the content of those pages, its about the technical issue of whether there could have been a 'reserved mccann space' where future pages could have landed.

    I cannot comment on any of that technical 'stuff' so I will remain with it being a WBM mistake until someone can explain without any question that the only way those 'reserved' pages could have existed was because CEOP had them in place before Madeleine disappeared.

    I have to rely on others to confirm 'officially' there is no question.

    Until then please understand if I remain on the 'logical' side of what happened, and that 'future' pages migrated to that date, and I will respect those that feel it was technically impossible to have that 'reserved page' in place unless CEOP had placed it there three days before Madeleine's disappearance.

    Nothing has been resolved so we don't know anything for sure yet...
    2 hrs · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Martina McCosker Your comment 'I think maybe Lizzy found this gentleman helpful and charming and therefore believing all that he told her, thats not the same Lizzy I know to be passionate about getting at the true problem here, I still love you though Lizzy, don't go soft on us' made me chuckle...Don't EVER worry about what you say about me. I am OK to listen to anything said about me smile emoticon

    If its true I will try to change it, if its not true then it doesn't concern me smile emoticon

    The thing is, we are ALL susceptible to being 'conned' at some point in our lives, but I just want you to know what those that already know me are aware of. Don't ever underestimate me because of what you perceive.

    In 65 years I have learned that you can't always tell if someone is lying, but you can often tell if someone is telling the truth...and if there is any doubt there are ways to clarify the doubt. wink emoticon

    I am well past the 'best before' date of going 'soft' when chatting to a bloke. In a 25 min phone call I had no reservations about Chris speaking truthfully. 

    Like everyone, I only want the truth and if I had got any sense whatsoever of anything questionable I would have either confronted him with it, or at the very least made my concerns known.

    I don't 'protect' anyone as a trade off for the truth and I have no concerns that WBM are trying to hide or backtrack on anything. (At this point anyway)

    BTW 'charming' doesn't work on me regardless wink emoticon
    1 hr · Like
  • Chris Roberts Lizzy Hideho Taylor, me, Steve Marsden and Lord Miles Spencer are all techies but with differing backgrounds and experience. All three of us look at this and all agree that it really does stretch credulity for WBM to apparently purport this as a one off. Between the three of us we pretty much cover all the bases. In all things I first apply the principal of Ockhams razor and the simplest explanation here is that the file is genuine. I was quite astonished actually at how many pages WBM have captured over time. More than a few.
    Chris Roberts's photo.
    1 hr · Like · 2
  • Claire Welsman I'm thinking if you upload a page called mccann.html to the ceop server.... but you don't put a link to it anywhere, its just sat in a folder out there somewhere, would wayback machine still pick it up? Technically its live right? technically it exists.. but the public just dont know its there and why would they...
    1 hr · Edited · Like · 1
  • Steve Marsden Claire, I sometimes develop a web page for a site but don't connect it to the navigation structure. Therefore, it's not technically part of the website and no crawler could find it. But to have found a page called mccann.html you would think it had a link to it somewhere or else it couldn't be found. The question is where.
    1 hr · Like · 2
  • Chris Roberts Applying Ockhams razor again, the most likely reason for this April 30th page is that someone "in the know" blew the whistle just as someone in Leics police blew the whistle to the PJ on the Gaspar statements without which they would never have seen the light of day.
    Whover is responsible for the Apr 30th page didn't expect it to remain undetected for so long. That is the simplest explanation which then of course begs the question where was Madeleine for the "missing" three days and was she alive or dead?
    1 hr · Like · 2
  • Nick Fox If WBM did your bank account, it would know what date it first spotted your bank account. Whatever you spent or saved in the meantime is totally irrelevant. The date it first spotted your bank account would be the day it logged. So how comes your bank account was logged three days prior to the day you say it was opened?
    1 hr · Edited · Like
  • Claire Welsman Ahh that makes sense. And a very good question!
    1 hr · Like
  • Chris Roberts The computer made a mistake smile emoticon
    1 hr · Like
  • Nick Fox As Basil would say, the computer is from Barcelona.
    1 hr · Like
  • Vikki Scott As someone completely ignorant of all things technical, can someone please explain how a computer's timestamp can go backwards ? It is my understanding that a computer can only do what it is told to do.
    1 hr · Like
  • Vikki Scott And why was Chris so confident in his first response to Isabelle ? Surely if a glaring errror was pointed out he would at least do a cursory check before respoding that there was no error ?
    1 hr · Edited · Like
  • Nick Fox That's the million-dollar question, Vikki. Just amateur coder myself but never had a date logged earlier than the actual date in 20 years - a few some seconds later for PC drag, but never any earlier. Once you have written the code it's impossible to go back in time. Far better coders I've spoken to basically say it's impossible and if it happened they would lose their job.
    1 hr · Like · 2
  • Steve Marsden Seems the WBM have removed a lot of older CEOP pages now
    Steve Marsden's photo.
    1 hr · Like · 1
  • Vikki Scott ? How odd that trouble seems to follow McCann & CEOP. All with a perfectly rational explanation of course. Just like Eddie & Keela. Perhaps they were also subject to an 'error' ?
    1 hr · Like · 1
  • Chris Roberts yep indeed they were ... foow foow instead of the usual woof woof smile emoticon
    47 mins · Like
  • Isabel Oliveira There are still entries for 2007 . If you put an asterisk after the web address you will get a full listing . 

    I was also surprised today that a member in CMOMM was able to create some file and that file got captured as a ceop +the name of a user of     CMOMM in WBM . It was as if we were looking at a ceop file but it wasn't . I can't explain it and to be frank I don't understand much about it either but you can read that thread in CMOMM.
    45 mins · Like · 1
  • Chris Roberts Lizzy Hideho Taylor i may have missed it but what exactly is Chris's position in the WBM organisation ?
    41 mins · Like · 1
  • Nick Fox You can check him out here. Head of paper clips.https://archive.org/about/bios.php
    26 mins · Edited · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I have no idea if they have completed their 'investigation, but as mentioned its basically down to whether a 'reserved' page can exist three days earlier than it should have been 'known'.

    We know the content on the page was a mistake.

    So, as a non technical person I will stay with it being a computer error unless/until someone shows/proves me otherwise.

    I only have the 'facts' of the mistake of future pages on an incorrect date.

    Others, more technical than myself believe it is an impossibility. When that is clearly explained and proven then I will have further facts to build my opinion on and my opinion may change.
    25 mins · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Please keep in mind that it my responsibility to ensure that HDH sticks to the facts as much as possible, so when everything relies on whether a computer program made a mistake or not as being the difference as to whether there was a MAJOR cover up by CEOP then I have to stay with what we KNOW (that there was a mistake regarding the page content for April 30th) , regardless of whether the alternative holds more interest for everyone.

    IF when I see 'official' proof of the 'reserved' page being in place 3 days before Madeleine disappeared being the ONLY explanation then of course everything changes.

    I am not the one to make the call on whether its possible or not, so I await the proof either way and remain with it being a mistake until then.

    I hope members understand and respect my decision.
    2 mins · Like
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Re：Chris Butler Convo June 29th 2015

Date Posted：02/07/2015 6:07 PMCopy HTML


  • Vikki Scott But how do we know it was a mistake? No one has given a definitive answer and as such all possibilities remain open. I keep saying, as computer science is so precise why are experts arguing or should I say, disagreeing? It is a machine and by its very nature can only perform tasks it is asked to do. No wriggle room. Why is it so difficult for Chris or WBM to say, 'look, A happened which caused B, resulting In C? I also have to concur with cmomm that there seen to be an awful lot of 'experts' crawling out of the woodwork to blind us with science and debunk this.
    19 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Vikki Scott There is a difference between the content on the page and why the page appeared to 'exist'.

    The content of the pages was from a future date, which confirms it was a mistake.

    * CEOP Maddie page referred to a link to a downloadable poster which originated from the McCann's FindMadeleine site which wasn't yet in place.

    * CEOP Home page linked to the Maddie Page referred to 'Latest News' in October.

    The page content of April 30th were very obviously incorrect for that date as they referred to a time in the future 

    What is in question is whether the april 30th date was a 'reserved' page (by CEOP) or not

    If it can be proven that it was impossible for future pages to have migrated there without it existing, then we have a major cover up existing.

    If there is a technical answer to why those 'future' pages landed on the April 30th date then its a computer error.

    At this point its all down to technical details and speculation is irrelevant.

    1) Can experts come up with a technical answer to how the July/October pages arrived on April 30th date (COMPUTER ERROR)

    .OR

    Is it IMPOSSIBLE for those 'future' pages to have landed on that date unless CEOP had 'reserved' a space? (COVER UP)

    It appears to me to be based on one or the other of those options.

    (Unless someone can explain how I am incorrect)
    16 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
  • Lord Miles Spencer It is important to differentiate between the various pages being discussed. Concerning the Apr30th to say "the content...future date..confirms it was a mistake" is NOT correct - if u r talking about the future news pages I cannot say without viewing the source code, I would imagine it was down to some sort of dynamic content - without the code I personally cannot reliably say. And even then it might not be possible to say. 

    The poster was not downloadable, to my knowledge, on Apr 30th but was, I am told, from May 13th.

    Where does the April 30th McCann.html page refer to a "time in the future" - it DOES NOT. 

    For me there is NO QUESTION that the Apr30 McCann.html was a page being worked on/prepared for a later release and this is PROVEN by the lack of the missing graphic (tennis balls) and YET it displayed on May13th - the missing graphic is called madeleine_02.jpg - this is seen in the code. It couldn't display tennis balls because tennis balls was NOT in the folder WITH madeleine_01.jpg which it DID display - by May 13th is WAS in the folder hence displayed. CEOP logs/records will possibly show what date m_02 was uploaded and that might help however their complete lack of transparency or willingness to engage suggests dishonesty, in my book - and this from a government who we are meant to trust and a police organisation who we are meant to trust - of course they are under no obligation to be forthwith however they do have a MORAL duty to their fellow man and they have a Ducking MORAL obligation to MADDIE. 

    1) possibly dynamic data - see above 

    2) the Apr 30th pages were captured from CEOPs servers, or reserved space if you like. Ergo COVER UP by CEOP/Govt/whoever. WBM are not to blame so why, when they must surely see the importance of this Apr 30th have they been woefully inadequate in there responses. 

    At one point they said July 21 was to blame - ??? Explain
    14 hrs · Edited · Like · 3
  • Lord Miles Spencer Solutions - ask one of their guys who has knowledge of what this "alleged" mistake is to come to the forum and field questions - they don't have to of course they don't but by NOT explaining PROPERLY are we not entitled to draw some inference from their unwillingness to. For example "you have the right to remain silent" if someone, no-one in particular he he, uses the no comment reply does a court draw an inference from their lack of reply. 

    It's usually dishonest people who go no comment. It's usually dishonest people who delete phone records. It's usually dishonest people who say one thing, change it, muffle a reply and then ignore the questioner.

    Hey, Lord Spencer, I can hear WBM yelling " throw me a frickin bone here " and I will - I believe that the reply to IM was PROBABLY a stock reply - I am sure Chris is a lovely dude and he probably gets that question from IM all the time - perhaps someone ought to do a precise timeline for posterity. 

    INCORRECT, July 21st and SUBSET is not enough of a transparent honest explanation for me.
    14 hrs · Edited · Like · 3
  • Lord Miles Spencer Another solution might be if perhaps Lizzy could ask if they would accept a call from and discuss the matter with Steve Marsden - Firstly as he has a vast level of experience in this matter, especially crawlers, and secondly, he found the ruddy thing ( smile emoticon ).....x
    12 hrs · Like · 10
  • Nick Fox "Where does the April 30th McCann.html page refer to a "time in the future" - it DOES NOT." Exactly, my Lord.
    11 hrs · Like · 2
  • Janine Bresnick All I can say is, if the WayBack software had problems with it's "subset" it must be as unreliable as Eddie and Keela! 
    10 hrs · Like · 4
  • Maggie Potter I have been retired through health for a while but come from a security background with a tiny bit of web development experience. I do know code I have analysed trillions of lines of the stuff. The only way time can go backwards is a CPU battery issue but then all the sites would be affected.

    This 'reserved' term is bugging me and I wish everyone would stop referring to 30th April page in this way. Examples of reserved spaces are parked domains or empty threads on forums. They have no content other than date and perhaps text like "this domain has been parked". As soon as you add html images etc then it is no longer reserved and very much active. The fact remains that the missing page existed with one image and a placemark for a 2nd image.

    I haven't looked at code because these days I only have a mobile phone but the link going to the future certainly sounds like a dynamic like as already mentioned by others. To explain that in non tech imagine a piece of string with a tennis ball attached, for whatever reason the ball gets damaged, you attach a ping pong ball. The string no longer leads to the tennis ball.
    8 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor When a page has a link to something (poster) that was not available for some time later then logic tells me the page content could not have been the appropriate one for April 30th

    When the CEOP Home Page on April 30th refers to 'Latest News' in Octobe    ...See More
    8 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Maggie Potter ^^ if not battery issue then malware or hackers
    8 hrs · Like
  • Janine Bresnick So you agree Maggie that once the CEOP page had been detected/given a time/date stamp, WayBack couldn't "undetect" it? They had to re-badge it with a new time/date.
    8 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Please understand that as far as WHY the April 30th 'reserved page' exists is what is in question here and that is the 'techie question.. Is it explainable with computer technology or not...

    If April 30th date page isn't explainable and its IMPOSSIBLE     for it to have existed unless CEOP had a 'reserved page' predated to Madeleine's disappearance...(COVER UP)

    If it CAN be explained by techical computer details then its a computer error... MISTAKE)

    Thats an area I have no idea about and leave to the experts 

    I CANNOT comment on the technical stuff but I am able to comment on a page referring to October or a link to a downloadable poster not available until a while later as being a 'mistake' when it appears on April 30th.

    That cannot be denied as far as I can see.
    8 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Chris Roberts Hoever you look at it, WBM has to be involved in a "damage limitation" exercise. If whatever algorithms they apply to their mining and storage of data is faulty then every one of 465 Billion pages is suspect. If the algorithms are correct then the Apr...See More
    8 hrs · Like · 6
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Nick Fox When a page has a link to click a downloadable poster that was not available for a while later then that page could not have existed on April 30th and is therefore a mistake..

    HOWEVER, the issue seems to be that there was a 'reserved' page for it to appear on and THATS the issue
    8 hrs · Like
  • Isabel Oliveira Can someone explain the creation of a file under CEOP by a CMOMM member that was captured by WB? I find that puzzling and I don't understand how it is possible. As I understand, this was done as an exercise to see if it was possible . But I am still n...See More
    Isabel Oliveira's photo.
    8 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Chris Roberts Oh I have no doubt at all it's a mistake, a testicle of MASSIVE proportions was dropped by someone .. and I think it was dropped deliberately by a whistle blower.
    6 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
  • Lord Miles Spencer grr, Lizzy Hideho Taylor is making my blood boil - smile emoticon - right lizzy, click this it is listed by google as coming from the Guardian newspaper in 2007 - i limited the search range for 2007 to 2008 - on the guardian page that opens look on the right hand side and you will see that SOMEHOW the guardian KNEW that the UK women would get knocked out of the world cup last night - THAT is dynamic content - OR is this an ERROR or INCORRECT - now simmering, breathe in, release, hehe - i am NOT saying that is what happened, i havent looked at the ceop homepage code smile emoticon smile emoticon smile emoticon
    7 hrs · Like · 5
  • Lord Miles Spencer forgot the link -http://www.theguardian.com/.../26/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
    The disappearance of Madeleine McCann and the aftermath...
    Key developments in the disappearance of Madeleine...
    THEGUARDIAN.COM|BY JAMES STURCKE
    7 hrs · Like · Remove Preview
  • Lord Miles Spencer Nick Fox Lizzy is talking about the main CEOP homepage - ie without the mccann.html
    7 hrs · Like
  • Chris Roberts Lord Miles Spencer, I hate you with a burning passion because I was just about to post exactly the same thing. Drat. foiled again.
    7 hrs · Like · 4
  • Nick Fox But that would have a different URL, no?
    7 hrs · Like · 1
  • Chris Roberts Perhaps an even more simple example of dynamic content is Facebook. You click on your alerts and the new posts appear...... the original and previous content does not change. I would think WBM may well "spider" FB pages ..... do you think they will take a whole new page everytime someone posts or merely update the original page ?
    7 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I agree there may have been questionable dates here...a 'reserved' page that may or may not have existed on April 30th, and thats why I say, if it can be proven by computer technical details then its a mistake, if it was impossible for it to exist, and it DID exist then its a cover up...
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Lord Miles Spencer Lizzy Hideho Taylor said "When a page has a link to click a downloadable poster that was not available for a while later then that page could not have existed on April 30th and is therefore a mistake..
    " 

    TOTALLY INCORRECT
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor MY issue is that the content of the pages that we saw were from a 'future' date so its really nothing to do with those pages...we KNOW they were supposed to be July and October
    7 hrs · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer Isabel Oliveira First three entries, dated 2015 are different URLs - check them out
    7 hrs · Like · 1
  • Isabel Oliveira Just June 29th one Lord, that was the one created as an example by a forum user. It is the 2nd one down. I just don't get how it is possible to do it?
    7 hrs · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer Yes Nick Fox - the CEOP homepage people are saying had what was possibly dynamic content on was ceop.gov.uk AS OPPOSED TOceop.gov.uk/mccann.html
    Child Exploitation & Online Protection Centre - internet safety - CEOP
    The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre...
    CEOP.POLICE.UK
    7 hrs · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
  • Nick Fox Isabel Oliveira Anyone can archive a page on WB. The problem is how you get the time to change.
    7 hrs · Like · 4
  • Lord Miles Spencer Lizzy Hideho Taylor YOUR "logic" (not being rude) dictates that the Guardian newspaper...see comment above, click it, look right and down
    7 hrs · Like
  • Maggie Potter Au contraire Lizzy, if indeed there are no code errors to explain the 30th timestamp then the poster link is proof that it was all pre-planned. That link was there as a placemark for the future poster.
    7 hrs · Like · 3
  • Isabel Oliveira Thank you Nick, but isn't that a problem in itself? IE someone can go and file a page under any web address they want. Then users will be looking and will be thinking it is a genuine caption (even though when you click on it there is no content and it redirects to CEOP site in this case)? I understand this does not resolve the time stamp but it is a concerning aspect of the archive.
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Emily Thorne Apart from everything else you cannot change the date of a code when you start programming, everytime you change the code or make amendments the date changes - this I believe is the most damming frown emoticon I believe this was a planned abduction that went wrong by her dying by accident. Poor soul - hence the massive coverup.
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Steve Marsden Isabel, no. You can only do a page you have control of and the timestamp will be when you do it. You can't register a page that doesn't exist or have a page saved from the past.
    7 hrs · Like · 6
  • Isabel Oliveira ok created one with the extension isabelnick , see what happens. This is the address it gave me. I assume it wil be there in 2 days or so . 

    http://web.archive.org/.../201.../http://www.ceop.police.uk/
    Child Exploitation & Online Protection Centre - internet safety - CEOP
    The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) works across the UK tackling child sex abuse and providing advice for parents, young people and children about internet safety and online safety.
    WEB.ARCHIVE.ORG
    7 hrs · Like · Remove Preview
  • Lord Miles Spencer Date of Guardian article is on the left - Monday 21 July 2008 - How did they know England lost to own goal - This is on the Google 'archive' - With google you can specify the date range, which i did for newspaper articles 2007 to 2008 - hence 21/7/2008
    7 hrs · Like
  • Lord Miles Spencer I withdraw, head bubbling, frustration continuing, need an ice cold coke and a fag...i tried x
    7 hrs · Like
  • Chris Roberts Whoever Mr De Lorean is, I envy him smile emoticon
    7 hrs · Like · 1
  • Maggie Potter Isobel look at your link though the time stamp is there 10:41:49 2nd July 2015
    7 hrs · Like · 1
  • Isabel Oliveira Thank you Maggie, Although my issue is not the time stamp on this occcasion. My issue is the creation of pages that will show as CEOP pages captured by WB and they are not CEOP pages. As per the SS I included above , the 2nd one down was an experiment and it is there showing as a CEOP page. Naturally when you click on it it shows an error and then redirects to the CEOP homepage.
    7 hrs · Like
  • Maggie Potter Yes but considering the time stamps in URL then it eliminates that from being a scenario for the April entry
    7 hrs · Like · 2
  • Maggie Potter Unless it was someone who knew about mm that day
    7 hrs · Like · 3
  • Claire Welsman On a tangent, was arabic the only choice of different language? Isnt that a bit weird in itself?
    6 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lisa Pritchard I noticed that Claire Welsman.
    6 hrs · Like · 1
  • Isabel Oliveira Also on a big tangent, after checking the Portuguese in the OFM page , for someone that complains a lot about the PJ files translation they really should have got someone with better spelling and understanding of Portuguese grammar to do it for them....
    6 hrs · Like · 3
  • Emily Thorne Still wondering about Arabic, is it just the first choice from the drop down menu? So was it a test page?
    6 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lisa Pritchard A first letter of English alphabet. 
    Arabic language top of the list
    Could be right lines Emily Thorne.
    I think chris Roberts/Lord is right it was a work in progress and sat on the server waiting to go live .
    5 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lisa Pritchard A first letter of English alphabet. 
    Arabic language top of the list
    Could be right lines Emily Thorne.
    I think chris Roberts/Lord is right it was a work in progress and sat on the server waiting to go live .
    5 hrs · Like
  • Maggie Potter It's all to do with naming conventions coding rules etc and clever manipulations are used all the time for good and bad reasons. It's a matter for wbm to deal with but imo not relevant in this case.
    5 hrs · Like
  • Maggie Potter Well it is because still proves someone knew on 30th
    5 hrs · Like · 4
  • Emily Thorne All I know is this bloody case grows more arms and legs as it goes along frown emoticon
    5 hrs · Like · 1
  • Emily Thorne Yes Lisa I totally agree with Chris & Lord it was basically ready to go live with the nod from bosses frown emoticon
    5 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lorraine Birks IMO It was there on that date for the crawler to have picked the page up ..
    5 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lisa Pritchard That is how I understand it too Lorraine Birks.
    5 hrs · Like · 1
  • Steve Marsden Nick, you can basically trigger the wayback machine to archive a page at will. I don't believe you can submit a page today and tell the wayback machine to archive (save) the page as if it was in the past. There is no logic behind doing that.
    5 hrs · Like · 3
  • Chris Roberts Logic is the key. No software or operating system I've ever seen did anything else but rely on logic. "Reserving" pages ?
    3 hrs · Edited · Like · 4
  • Nick Fox Yes, I understand that Steve. You can't tinker with the date. What I didn't understand was when you said earlier that you could only save pages you control. Also think someone on one site Syn (?) proved that you could also archive pages that don't exist. Doesn't effect the date so it was a pretty pointless exercise. The pages that don't exist will be quickly whooshed anyway.
    3 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Nick Fox Since Lizzy Hideho Taylor is a well-respected researcher into the case, and probably knows more about it than anyone other than those directly involved, I would love to hear from her the possible scenarios of what might have happened if she accepts that the WB machine is right. The WB finding does rather back up her opinion that Maddie died earlier in the week, an opinion I share largely thanks to her analysis.
    3 hrs · Like · 4
  • Isabel Oliveira If that information was to be correct and in order for it to have time to be in the CEOP site by the morning of Monday the 30th well then you would have to consider she probably didn't even go to Portugal. At least you would have to consider that on hi...See More
    2 hrs · Like
  • Lorraine Birks Lizzy has worked tirelessly all these years , I don't know how she has done everything she has done , and been strict with truth only , as a fact . 
    She has to see the truth in a statement before accepting it as a fact .    ...See More
    2 hrs · Like · 2
  • Lorraine Birks The thing is that the Wayback crawler doesn't pick up all and every site ..
    What are the odds on it being picked up in the first place ?
    2 hrs · Like
  • Nick Fox Yes Lorraine Birks, but on this particular issue she is saying that it has been proven that the machine made an error. And that is not fact. The only fact is that it did pick it up. How it got there I don't know.
    2 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
  • Sandra Crawford Inside my skull is like a washingmachine now in spin cycle - argggg!
    2 hrs · Like · 3
  • Chris Roberts Lorraine, what the WBM didn't pick up doesn't really matter I think.
    2 hrs · Like
  • Steve Marsden I still think the presence of a Bell Pottinger executive (Michael Frohlich) the week before the official disappearance and then Woolfall's presence 2 days later is part of the same issue.
    2 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lisa Pritchard Remember Martin Brunt reporting that the family had been there for 2 weeks.??? Could this have been true. Everyone is remembering what they did in the first week (badly) then making out it was the second weeks activities.
    1 hr · Like
  • Lorraine Birks What I was trying to say Chris is , it did pick it up so , for me there NO question of it NOT being there at that time . 
    Definitely picked up at that exact moment in time ....
    1 hr · Like
  • Isabel Oliveira Sandra, I'm on the spin cycle 
    1 hr · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor I'm not sure that I am being 'heard' correctly.

    I have no knowledge of the technical side so anything I say does not reflect that.

    I saw two pages on April 30th datewhos content reflected July? and October.

    That in itself shows there was a 'mistake' as that content could NOT have been on that page on April 30th.

    That is the only 'mistake I refer to.

    What appears to be the issue is whether the date page of April 30th was 'reserved (to be available to have shown those pages from CEOP) in which case the there is something sinister and a possible cover up...

    IF there is an explanation for that date to have existed at whatever point to have allowed for the July? and October content to be shown on there when found then it is a computer error.

    Thats why I say, at this point its down to the experts.

    Can it be proved that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the date to exist unless it was 'reserved' by CEOP or Is it possible to put it down to some kind of computer error?

    One or the other?

    Its down to the experts and I will remain with the computer error until it is proven beyond doubt that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have that date available to be viewed on June 18th and showing content from July? October 2007 with a date of April 30th unless CEOP had 'reserved it prior to May 3rd.
    Lizzy Hideho Taylor's photo.
    1 hr · Edited · Like
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Re：Chris Butler Convo June 29th 2015

Date Posted：02/07/2015 6:43 PMCopy HTML

 
  • Lorraine Birks The picture above is not the picture that was originally found on the 16th June 
    This is what was found ...
    Lorraine Birks's photo.
    1 hr · Like · 1
  • Lorraine Birks THAT IS HOW IT WAS PHOTOGRAPHED , NO OTHER DATES ON IT .
    1 hr · Like · 1
  • Chris Roberts Let's rewind again ..... if a file is created on April 30th, that date will STILL show as it's creation date even though it has been subsequently modified by additional updates. This is a simple example off one of my own machines.
    Chris Roberts's photo.
    54 mins · Like · 1
  • Emily Thorne The coding clearly says 11.58 on April 30th 2007 that can never be amended.
    Emily Thorne's photo.
    36 mins · Like · 1
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor Lorraine Birks The 'Madeleine' page had a link that directed to a downloadable poster which was not available n that day of April 30th. That tells me that the page content was not from April 30th.

    When I clicked on the 'Madeleine' page from April 30th (with the link) to go to the 'Home Page' it directed me to the Home page showing 'Latest News' for October and yet at the top showed the date as April 30th. That tells me that although it says April 30th it was not the correct content for April 30th
    26 mins · Like
  • Lizzy Hideho Taylor It was when I alerted WBM to the 'Home Page showing April 30th but having content as 'Latest News' for October that Chris recognised there was an error.
    25 mins · Like
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